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Post by Soap on Feb 26, 2012 6:56:45 GMT -5
I know this has been talked about before, but I want some advice regarding my force of chimeras. I'm currently building the 4th of 5 chimeras to go with the 3 I already have. The original 3 all have turret ML, while two have HB and the other HF on the hull.
Three of the latest chimeras are all armed with HB both turret and hull. I was thinking about going turret and hull HF for the last two, but would that be too restrictive? I will be having them with hull mounted HF, but I'm stuck with the turret. I was thinking HF would give range issues, as I don't want things getting in CC range, so was thinking HB for the extra shots. But then again, the ML is better for low armour targets....
Agh.... Help please!
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Post by Deathkorpsman on Feb 26, 2012 7:12:37 GMT -5
I think the only option that really isn't tactically sound is dual heavy flamers. Because of the range, you're almost guaranteed to have to move in which case you'll only get to fire one of them. You're also not able to do anything until the enemy is actually in your lines. Personally, I'd go about half and half hull h.bolter or h.flamers. As for turret weapons, I personally prefer the multilaser because of its usefulness against a broader range of vehicles than any of the other options. My multi-laser/h.bolter Chimeras usually pound away at infantry while my others line up on vehicles (mainly other transports) to give me greater weight of fire. I don't think the turret heavy bolter is necessarily a bad choice, though there are some things it can't hurt that a multilaser can, while there's nothing like that the other way around. Sure some things will get a 4+ save that otherwise wouldn't, but with the way cover currently is I don't really see that as a huge improvement and a situational improvement at best.
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Post by vulpine on Feb 26, 2012 8:44:49 GMT -5
I Love the Ci, actualy love it. For 55pts it's a awesome. Shame it can't have a turret lacannon or (officially) a autocannon. However this is what I would say about weapon choices:
Hull: Always the HB the problem with the flamer on the hull is it has less angles to get at. Also even if I had the turret flamer two flamers would restrict it. Turret Flamer: I would only stick this on a Ci that was defiantly going to get into the thick combat. Even then I would be torn for the other two. Turret HB vr ML: This is a difficult choice, neither is much good against tanks and both are round about the same aginst troops. I would just mix and match. Stubber: For me, a must. Although pricy for a total of 65pts it's still a bargain. With two more anti infantry weapons it a fantastic little heavy weapons pill box.
Hope this all helps.
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Post by bman on Feb 26, 2012 9:21:09 GMT -5
Always th turret ML, and never the HB. The turret is for transport killing and it is a transport so it should always be moving at least 6" a turn. Mine usually move 12 for the first two turns and I try to never disembark. So a HF or HB on the hull, either one is OK.
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Post by vulpine on Feb 26, 2012 9:28:03 GMT -5
I don't always see it as a transport. Yes that is a role it is ideal for. However, there is no reason it can't be taken, deployed separate and work as a heavy weapons team. 650pts for 10 with stubbers, they don't run and have armour (not much mind). I had a guard army with 13 Ci and most were not used to transport men in, although some did sit inside for protection and it worked rather well.
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Post by WestRider on Feb 26, 2012 10:09:45 GMT -5
Here's my breakdown: - Turret: Multi-Laser. The Heavy Flamer works better in the Hull Mount, and the extra Strength of the Multi-Laser is more often useful than the AP of the Heavy Bolter, since most Units with 4+ or worse Saves tend to hug Cover. - Hull Mount: Can go either way. I like to have about one in three with a Heavy Flamer, and the rest get Heavy Bolters. The Heavy Flamer is better here because, even though it has fewer angles, it gets an extra inch or so of Range, which is very important with the Template. - Extras: I usually go with Hunter-Killers if I've got more than a few Chimerae. A good salvo of H-Ks on Turn 1 can be worth a lot, especially if Mech is predominant in your Meta. The Stubber is nice for Chimerae that are primarily going to be engaging Infantry, especially those with Hull Heavy Bolters that are going to be sitting back and serving as Bunkers. 9 Shots per Turn at an average S5 ends up adding up to a lot of damage. I'd rarely take both, though, the Points really do start to add up.
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Post by Empirespy on Feb 26, 2012 10:50:48 GMT -5
I say multi laser all the way, my personal opinion is that a Hull HB is better than a hull HF, but that's just me
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Post by AshotNINJA on Feb 26, 2012 12:26:00 GMT -5
i have a quick question regarding chimera weapons. on forge wolrd they sell an chimera autocannon turret... now i like the sound of an auto cannon on my chimeras, but there is no entry in the standard IG codex and i cant seem to find the rules and points costs for using them in any of the imperial armour books... any thoughts?
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Post by WestRider on Feb 26, 2012 16:30:06 GMT -5
It's in Imperial Armour Volume 1, but those Rules are outdated. But you can download the Imperial Armour Volume 1 Rules Update from Forge World's Download Page. I think it's on Pg. 7 in the .pdf. Honestly, they're ridiculously cheap. Should have switched the Points Cost with the TL Heavy Bolter option.
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Post by bman on Feb 29, 2012 21:02:29 GMT -5
I wish they would put AC in the IG Codex. That is what a Chimera should have on it.
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Post by WestRider on Feb 29, 2012 21:46:51 GMT -5
They look so cool with the Autocannon on there, too. I'd happily pay 10 Points a piece for them.
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Post by zeke on Mar 1, 2012 1:16:19 GMT -5
The AC was in the last edition of the IG codex if I remember correctly, but they took it out because it is a little overpowered to have an AC on a transport.
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Post by Lord General Armstrong on Mar 1, 2012 2:22:04 GMT -5
The AC was in the last edition of the IG codex if I remember correctly, but they took it out because it is a little overpowered to have an AC on a transport. It wasn't in our previous codex, might of been in our 3rd edition one, but I am looking at my old 3rd edition rulebook (The one with all the races army lists) as I stupidly sold my 3rd edition guard codex and I don't see it in there.
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Post by vulpine on Mar 1, 2012 2:50:59 GMT -5
It ain't been in 3rd or after, not sure about 2nd? It was in FW, shame I thin it and a single Lascannon should be in the dex
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Post by emptyhat on Mar 1, 2012 2:54:21 GMT -5
If Chimera got to be that strong it would be necessary to cut the number you could field.
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Post by Peter Cooman on Mar 1, 2012 6:49:53 GMT -5
3rd dex had the same options as this one. How can an autocannon be overpowered on a transport?? Marines can get a twin lascannon on razorbacks so i wouldn't mind the AC
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Post by Lord General Armstrong on Mar 1, 2012 18:21:34 GMT -5
How can an autocannon be overpowered on a transport?? Marines can get a twin lascannon on razorbacks so i wouldn't mind the AC This and they get twin linked plasma guns with a single lascannon, twinlinked assault cannons all with better BS and Less Armour.
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Post by DadCRO on Mar 1, 2012 19:05:38 GMT -5
And for cheaper. Chimeras have armor and transport capacity going for them.
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Post by Lord General Armstrong on Mar 1, 2012 21:19:27 GMT -5
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Post by WestRider on Mar 1, 2012 22:29:13 GMT -5
Not bad. I'd probably drop the cost of the Plasma Cannon to 15 and up the Autocannon at least to +5, maybe to +10. It really is significantly better than the Multi-Laser/Heavy Bolter option.
Considering that we can already fit in a truly ridiculous number of Autocannon, and how weak of a limiting force the FOC is on the Guard Dex anyhow, I really don't think it would be a problem in absolute terms. There should definitely be an upgrade cost, though, since like I said above, it's a clearly superior option to the Heavy Bolter/Multi-Laser.
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Post by Lord General Armstrong on Mar 1, 2012 22:41:51 GMT -5
Not bad. I'd probably drop the cost of the Plasma Cannon to 15 and up the Autocannon at least to +5, maybe to +10. It really is significantly better than the Multi-Laser/Heavy Bolter option. The Plasma Cannon is 20 Points because that is half the points required to purchase Plasma Cannon Sponsons on a Leman Russ. Just as a Line infantry squads heavy bolter is #0 points half of which to purchase heavy bolter sponsons. It is also free, as line infantry squads and heavy weapon teams have the autocannon as the same price as the heavy bolter, where as on the Chimera the heavy bolter is free ie. meaning the autocannon should be free. But I do see your point. And I can also see it making the mech vet armies more increasingly powerful than they already are giving them greater range and better ability at taking down medium/light armoured vehicles, transports and monstrous creatures.
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Post by WestRider on Mar 1, 2012 23:02:54 GMT -5
Different platforms call for different pricing. Plasma Sponsons on Russes are priced according to how well they function as backup weapons on the Executioner and Demolisher. They're overpriced on every other variant. They're also far, far more survivable on the Russ Chassis. It's similar to the difference in pricing between a Hydra and an Exterminator.
An Executioner with Plasma Sponsons is throwing out one Plasma Blast per 46 Points. Your Chimerae are getting one per 75 Points. There are some other factors that the Chimerae bring, I'm not saying they should be 46 Points each with a Plasma Cannon on there, but 75 is more than they're worth.
AP1-3 Weapons, especially long-ranged, multi-shot, or Blast versions, are chronically overpriced by GW. With the prevalence of 4+ Cover in 5th Ed, they really aren't worth all that.
The Heavy Bolter is relatively more valuable in an Infantry Squad because it's an Anti-Infantry Weapon in a Squad armed with lots of Anti-Infantry Firepower, while the Autocannon's Anti-Transport Role gets no support from the Lasguns. On a Chimera, where the weapons are being looked at in isolation, the Autocannon is more valuable. Note that the Autocannon is more expensive than the Multi-Laser on Sentinels, probably the closest platform for comparison, and in my experience, fairly well priced.
The Autocannon Chimerae also need the Price increase specifically to counter the problem you mention with MechVetSpam. As I said in my previous post, the FOC isn't much of a limiting factor on the Guard, so we need to put those limits in with Points. This is why I think they should go all the way up to 10 Points per Chimera, actually, because at that point, upgrading a 2K Army's Chimerae to Autocannon is costing you most of another Squad or light Tank
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Post by Lord General Armstrong on Mar 1, 2012 23:36:17 GMT -5
Different platforms call for different pricing. Plasma Sponsons on Russes are priced according to how well they function as backup weapons on the Executioner and Demolisher. They're overpriced on every other variant. They're also far, far more survivable on the Russ Chassis. It's similar to the difference in pricing between a Hydra and an Exterminator. An Executioner with Plasma Sponsons is throwing out one Plasma Blast per 46 Points. Your Chimerae are getting one per 75 Points. There are some other factors that the Chimerae bring, I'm not saying they should be 46 Points each with a Plasma Cannon on there, but 75 is more than they're worth. AP1-3 Weapons, especially long-ranged, multi-shot, or Blast versions, are chronically overpriced by GW. With the prevalence of 4+ Cover in 5th Ed, they really aren't worth all that. The Heavy Bolter is relatively more valuable in an Infantry Squad because it's an Anti-Infantry Weapon in a Squad armed with lots of Anti-Infantry Firepower, while the Autocannon's Anti-Transport Role gets no support from the Lasguns. On a Chimera, where the weapons are being looked at in isolation, the Autocannon is more valuable. Note that the Autocannon is more expensive than the Multi-Laser on Sentinels, probably the closest platform for comparison, and in my experience, fairly well priced. The Autocannon Chimerae also need the Price increase specifically to counter the problem you mention with MechVetSpam. As I said in my previous post, the FOC isn't much of a limiting factor on the Guard, so we need to put those limits in with Points. This is why I think they should go all the way up to 10 Points per Chimera, actually, because at that point, upgrading a 2K Army's Chimerae to Autocannon is costing you most of another Squad or light Tank I agree with everything you have just said but the plasma cannon is also the same amount of points as the armoured sentinel option. Now if it is dropped to 15, that would make the Chimera 5 points cheaper than the sentinel option and outclassing it in every way better maneuverability, more firepower as it also has a hull weapon for the same price, the ability to carry infantry etc. In essence it should be overpriced perhaps 25 to 30 points.
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Post by emptyhat on Mar 2, 2012 0:23:30 GMT -5
Razorbacks aren't cheaper when you dump a Lascannon on them though, it pretty much doubles the cost of the transport and you limit your self to only shifting round half a squad.
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Post by vulpine on Mar 2, 2012 2:52:46 GMT -5
Yes, but that's twin linked LC at BS4, not a single shot.
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