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REALISM
Sept 2, 2011 8:21:47 GMT -5
Post by Shostak(AWOL) on Sept 2, 2011 8:21:47 GMT -5
When this is finished I will most certainly play this game.
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REALISM
Sept 2, 2011 8:44:00 GMT -5
Post by Makarova (M.I.A) on Sept 2, 2011 8:44:00 GMT -5
I hope you'll enjoy it!
Right, gonna attempt to add ranges to weapons. These will be relatively short compared to effective medieval "battle" ranges. A single or even up to a few dozen archers can't hit a loosely spread mass of 50 men at over a 100 yards. 300 yards volley fire is done by the thousands, firing at thousands. So I will mostly base ranges on a few dozen men shooting at another few dozen.
Update inbound!
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Gardelin
Guardsman
The Pantless One
And then, there were sallets.
Posts: 67
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REALISM
Sept 2, 2011 8:57:46 GMT -5
Post by Gardelin on Sept 2, 2011 8:57:46 GMT -5
Just read the combined armour tables. I'm a bit sceptical about the look though... If we take my earlier example, the guy would have an armour rating of 9, same as a gothic knight, but he clearly have lighter armour.
Maybe have the values of body armour decrease if combinging? For instance, say that you combine a coat of plates and mail, which both have 3 AR, which would be 6 combined. Instead of just adding them up, you could have a combining penalty of 1, so that the total rating would be 5.
Also, where goes the border of the leg guards and arm guards? Would it be enough to have a long sleeved mail armour, or do you have to have platemail parts?
I like the concept of the combined armour. After all, I did suggest it. I just think it needs a bit more fine tuning.
The ranged weapons look good. I was wondering one thing though. What's the difference of a short bow and a hunting bow? Wouldn't a hunting bow often be a short bow?
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REALISM
Sept 2, 2011 9:22:48 GMT -5
Post by Makarova (M.I.A) on Sept 2, 2011 9:22:48 GMT -5
Well, I'd up the tempered steel cuiarss to 7 again to avoid that. I'm not sure about combining penalties as it feels a bit overcomlpicated. Maybe stick with fixed profiles, but make "combined" fixed profiles? Like Plate and Chain, or Mail and Gambeson, you know. With slightly less armour value than a model would have if theoretically wearing both items at the same time. A long mail sleeve isn't good enough really, it pretty much needs to be heavy plate protection. This because it makes a rather big difference adding +1 armour value. A hunting bow represent your typical self-bow (gonna change the name to that), while a shortbow is the type of bows carried by... goblins? Yeah, I'll remove it, it was meant to represent shoddy short version of self-bows but it doesn't fit in very well. RANGES ADDED! Don't bite my head off until you've read my maths behind it.
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Gardelin
Guardsman
The Pantless One
And then, there were sallets.
Posts: 67
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REALISM
Sept 2, 2011 9:39:31 GMT -5
Post by Gardelin on Sept 2, 2011 9:39:31 GMT -5
I say have static AR values of combined armour. That would be the easiest way.
Also, about arm guards. For instance, a bret knight's armour, would that have arm guards?
You could have the short bow left, more as a token weapon. They were used by ancient and dark age cultures, more or less. This would also allow people using the system for more fantasy based armies to equip their beloved goblins with the bows they deserve.
No head biting, but, what's up with the arquebus range?
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REALISM
Sept 2, 2011 9:43:49 GMT -5
Post by Makarova (M.I.A) on Sept 2, 2011 9:43:49 GMT -5
I'll rework the armour tomorrow then!
They wear laminated braces, mail and mittens? Yeah, it would really. What wouldn't count is a Saxon's long-sleeved hauberk without mittens or bracers/elbow guards/shoulderguards.
I might as well add it in, although I'm not sure how realistic it is historically.
A 1400's era arquebus can sort of hit a man at 20 paces, and a block of men at 50, if stretching it. Those ranges are more suitable for 1500's era weapons reall.
So 20 / 1,5 = 13 / 2 = 6,5
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Gardelin
Guardsman
The Pantless One
And then, there were sallets.
Posts: 67
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REALISM
Sept 2, 2011 9:55:29 GMT -5
Post by Gardelin on Sept 2, 2011 9:55:29 GMT -5
I just love that the arquebus can "sort of" hit a guy. But yeah, I suppose that these weapons are little more than a metal pipe and some gunpowder.
Oh, and the brets actually wear pretty heavy stuff. Metal shoulderpads, bracers and often pieces covering the elbow. They also wear the 1300-style laminated plate gauntlets. Which are awesome.
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REALISM
Sept 2, 2011 10:01:01 GMT -5
Post by Makarova (M.I.A) on Sept 2, 2011 10:01:01 GMT -5
The Perry models have wooden-stocked matchlock arquebuses, but it's not a significant improvement. They have their uses en masse (see the 1500's), but in a skirmish game like this they're bound to have a fairly restricted use.
Make a nasty mess out of you if they get close though.
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Gardelin
Guardsman
The Pantless One
And then, there were sallets.
Posts: 67
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REALISM
Sept 2, 2011 10:05:04 GMT -5
Post by Gardelin on Sept 2, 2011 10:05:04 GMT -5
Yeah.. If they get close. I might change my decision to have my gunmen unarmoured, and give them some mail anyway. That way they might get to use their weapons.
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REALISM
Sept 3, 2011 6:22:54 GMT -5
Post by Shostak(AWOL) on Sept 3, 2011 6:22:54 GMT -5
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't a composite bow one constructed from many layers of wood, horn, sinew etc? Could the shortbow remain as a cavalry bow, where self bows are too long, (I'm thinking Lithuanian and Russian horse archers)? Or were all their bows composite anyway?
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REALISM
Sept 4, 2011 11:04:29 GMT -5
Post by Makarova (M.I.A) on Sept 4, 2011 11:04:29 GMT -5
Short answer, won't update until tomorrow.
Shostak: Almost every advanced nation using horse archers had laminated (composite) bows, all the way from northern Sweden to the American plains to most parts of Asia. The main reason as to why Europeans used single-piece bows was the humidity in most of the continent, laminated bows tend to break under humidity and bad weather (glue snaps).
Pretty damn sure that the Lithuanians and Russians would've used composite bows as the eastern European horse archers were steppe tribes, similar to the Asian neighbour tribes who did use laminated bows.
Actual short self-bows haven't really been used by civilised nations as far as I'm concerned.
Self-bows and longbows won't be useable on horseback, but the composite bow (and short bow if included) will be, so pretty standard there. For a special rennaissance/late medieval edition I'll also include rules for crossbows on horseback, using saddle-mounted winch mechanics that I've forgotten the name of.
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REALISM
Sept 5, 2011 5:10:09 GMT -5
Post by Makarova (M.I.A) on Sept 5, 2011 5:10:09 GMT -5
Right, it's pretty much been decided to implement the "static combination" armour system, ergo for example having two separate profiles for a mail haubergon and a haubergon with gambeson. So lots of profile writing to be done, next post will deal with that which is the main goal for today as well as updating armour piercing values.
EDIT: OKAY, SCREW THAT.
While typing up the armour profiles I realised that most of the combined profiles came down to "+1 A if you have gambeson/leather". So I'm gonna make gamb/leather an additional armour piece instead. And make plate and mail the main "combined static" armour piece. I feel that covers most of our needs.
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REALISM
Sept 5, 2011 5:39:22 GMT -5
Post by Makarova (M.I.A) on Sept 5, 2011 5:39:22 GMT -5
Body Armour:
Mail Haubergon: Simple light chain or scale mail tunic that covers your torso and possible parts of your arms. Relatively cheap to construct, and popular with Spanish mercenaries in the late 1400's as well as with many ancient and dark age soldiers and Eastern medieval soldiers.
Armour: 3
Brigandine: A simple leather or padded cloth jerkin, typically without arms or protection for the legs. It's riveted with iron or steel plates to offer extra protection, and is an inexpensive way to obtain decent armour.
Armour: 3
Mail Hauberk: A long coat of chain mail or scale mail, typically covering your upper legs and arms with variations throughout history. Popular with men-at-arms and knights in the dark ages up until the high middle ages.
Armour: 4
Munition Plate: A light iron breastplate commonly used by ancient Romans and Greeks, but also very popular with late medieval and rennaissance infantry although it was expensive for most of the era. Munition plate became easy and cheap to mass-produce in the 1500's, and was often issued on masse where possible.
Armour: 4
Plate and Mail: Armour typically worn by knights and elite soldiers before the invention of the full-body plate armour. It consists of a mail hauberk with attached iron or steel plates, or even a full second suit of armour such as a brigandine or a mail haubergon. This was worn as transitional plate armour up until the late 1400's.
Armour: 6
Tempered Steel Cuirass: Full plate armour suits came into being in the late 1400's, and are superb constructions of tempered steel plate designed to offer maximum protection all around the body. Tempered steel armour is extremely expensive, but also the best that money can buy.
Armour: 7
Additional Armour Pieces:
Helmet: These include any iron or steel helmet that can be considered to offer a decent level of protection for the wearer. While there is a difference between a skull cap and an armet, the system doesn't allow to show it in detail. Therefore, as a basic principle, any useful iron or steel helmet counts as a "helmet" and may be bought in addition to body armour. Leather caps are ignored for armour purposes.
Armour: 1
Leg Guards: This refers to complete iron or steel leg protection, such as the transitional plate leg armour but also the older Byzantine style of mail chaps worn with greaves, knee caps and protection for the thighs and upper legs.
Armour: 1
Arm Guards: Similar to leg guards, these include transitional plate arm protection but also the bracers, gauntlets and shoulderguards worn by renaissance infantry and medieval knights (in combination with mail). Only iron and steel armour count, leather and wood is ignored for the purpose.
Leather Jerkin: A leather jerkin, jacket or body armour constructed out of hardened or boiled leather. It's not very effective against anything but lighter cuts and basic tools, but can be worn under or over armour to offer extra protection. This profile represents heavy, thick hardened leather and not a leather insulation.
Armour: 1
Gambeson: These are common padded jackets, coats and body protection, often worn by militia and soldiers. They're inexpensive but effective, and offers basic protection against most types of weapons. They're also almost always worn under mail armour. This profile represents heavy, thick quilted padding and not the lighter "hidden" padding fitted inside plate armour.
Armour: 1
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REALISM
Sept 5, 2011 6:12:38 GMT -5
Post by Makarova (M.I.A) on Sept 5, 2011 6:12:38 GMT -5
UPDATED AP VALUES AND GOODIES.
Tool: A simple craftsman's tool and other improvised weapons. These includes carpenter's hammers, sickles, knives, shovels, farm scythes, wooden cudgels, tongs, wooden mauls, pitchforks etc.
Offense: - Defense: - AP: 1
Axe or Mace: Axes are both tools and weapons, and used to great effect to deliver cutting impact force that can break bones and armour. Maces have a similar purpose, but forego an edge for increased blunt trauma. Both are cheap, easy to use and very effective although their lethality is lesser than that of a sword. Most axes and maces are inexpensive and can be locally manufactured.
Offense: 1 Defense: - AP: 5
Sidesword: A sidesword is a relatively cheap, straight sword common in the 15th and 16th century. This profile also represents the Spatha-style dark age swords and the earlier medieval arming swords that can't be considered longswords. These weapons aren't as deadly as longswords, but make excellent sidearms, hence the name.
Offense: 1 Defense: 1 AP: 2
Longsword: Longswords are elegant, expensive and in the right hands very versatile and dangerous. Due to the hand-and-a-half grip, the length and the superior quality of a longsword, they are extremely lethal against unarmoured opponents. A longsword is a full meter or more in length.
Offense: 2 Defense: 1 AP: 3
Flailed Mace: Flailed maces, or flails, are weapons consisting of a mace head attached to a chain. The momentum provided by the chain offers immense impact force, at the cost of control and defense. These are inexpensive weapons often made from peasant threshers.
Offense: 2 Defense: -2 AP: 7
Spear: Short or medium-length spears that can be used in one hand. Spears are very useful as defensive weapons as their range can keep an enemy at bay. They're also inexpensive, and easy to wield. Naturally they are common with militia. A group of spearmen can hold the ground far longer than most other soldiers.
Offense: - Defense: 2 AP: 2
Long range: Spears are long-ranged weapons, and so are able to hit a man from afar. They may attack models when being one model further back in the line of fighting than normal. In addition a unit armed with spears get +2 on the roll to decide who goes first on the turn where they are charged.
Horse Trap: When being charged at by cavalry that moves far enough to be able to cause an impact, spearmen hit the horse on a 1-7 rather than a 1-5. In addition, for the duration of the turn the spearmen fight with +2 Offense.
Double-Handed Weapons:
Polearm: These weapons include two-handed implements fitted with axe or mace heads, such as simple halberds, voulges and billhooks. They're extremely destructive weapons, but cheap to make and easy to use.
Offense: 2 Defense: - AP: 9
Two-Handed Axe or Mace: Daneaxes, cor-de-becs, mauls, bardiches and similar brutal implements of trauma. These weapons are less common than polearms in the western middle ages, but were prominent in medieval eastern Europe, the dark ages, Asia and during antiquity. Less powerful than polearms, but more easily wielded in close quarters and in gritty melee clashes.
Offense: 3 Defense: - AP: 8
Halberd: These include well-made, professional halberds fitted with a hook for dragging men off horseback, and a long spear tip for taking cavalry charges. A Halberd can either fight as a Polearm or a Spear, and can change between the two at the start of every combat turn.
Glaives: These include weapons with a broad cutting edge and often a spear tip or some form of point, such as ranseurs, guisarmes, glaves, swordstaffs and similar implements. They are more offensive than spears, but still have a defensive value over normal poleaxes. These weapons can either be used as Spears or with the Glaive profile below.
Offense: 2 Defense: 1 AP: 7
Pikes: Pikes are extremely long spears, typically used in large formations to fight the enemy without engaging in a melee. They're also devastating against cavalry, and will often decimate a charge.
Offense: - Defense: 2 AP: 3
Very long range: Pikes are long-ranged weapons, and so are able to hit a man from afar. They may attack models when being up to two models further back in the line of fighting than normal. In addition if a unit contains over 50% pikes they get get +4 on the roll to decide who goes first on the turn where they are charged. This represents the pikes taking the charge and the other soldiers moving in for the killing blow.
Horse Trap: When being charged at by cavalry that moves far enough to be able to cause an impact, pikemen hit the horse on a 1-7 rather than a 1-5. In addition, for the duration of the turn the pikemen fight with +3 Offense.
Two-Handed Sword: This represents weapons such as bastard swords, claymores, bidenhänders and older Celtic two-handed swords. They're relatively rare and extremely expensive, but retain the flexibility of any sword while boasting improved impact force due to the double-handed grip.
Offense: 3 Defense: 1 AP: 4
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REALISM
Sept 5, 2011 6:28:15 GMT -5
Post by Rolling Thunder on Sept 5, 2011 6:28:15 GMT -5
Up the AP value on pikes.
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REALISM
Sept 5, 2011 7:38:45 GMT -5
Post by Makarova (M.I.A) on Sept 5, 2011 7:38:45 GMT -5
They have good armour piercing capabilities.. even if it's momentum-controlled I guess I could up it for the effect.
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Gardelin
Guardsman
The Pantless One
And then, there were sallets.
Posts: 67
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REALISM
Sept 6, 2011 14:27:04 GMT -5
Post by Gardelin on Sept 6, 2011 14:27:04 GMT -5
The new weapon statistics looks nice, though I'm note sure I understand the AP table. I don't have any program to open the attached file in the earlier post...
But if I could read it, I'm sure I'd understand why the polearm has AP 9.
P.s Love your new signature!
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REALISM
Sept 13, 2011 2:37:14 GMT -5
Post by Makarova (M.I.A) on Sept 13, 2011 2:37:14 GMT -5
Upped the short ranged offense of arquebuses, slightly lowered it for winch crossbows.
The file looks fine for me, basically it's similar to the Warhammer charts where you trace a value and compare it to another value. Tracing AP 9 will show you that you break Armour 9 on a 5+, Armour 10 on a 6+ etc. D10 of course.
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REALISM
Sept 14, 2011 6:54:50 GMT -5
Post by Makarova (M.I.A) on Sept 14, 2011 6:54:50 GMT -5
Right, almost at a loss of nuts to do now when it's wrapping up!
I'd still really like some feedback on the activation system, particularily on how the captain is meant to act during all of this. But we'll start with this for now:
The captain doesn't need to activate in order to attempt to activate other units.
If the captain wants to move, shoot, reload or whatever.. If on his own and not part of a unit, the captain is allowed to do this without activation but this automatically passes the next activation over to your opponent as the captain is busy.
Activation is done by passing a Bravery test (still need a new name for that), using the captain's Bravery stat. Range for this is 18".
If the captain dies, units may attempt to activate themselves using their own Bravery stat. If they have a unit sergeant, they may use their bravery as normal.
New action: Reload. Units with arquebuses and winch crossbows are assumed to come into the game with the weapons loaded, and may therefore fire as normal when they get the chance to. After that. they have to reload in order to fire again and need to continue to reload in between each shot. Reloading is an activated action, so if you reload you may not do anything else until you're activated again. Once you've reloaded, you can activate again when given the chance and fire.
Activations are: Move, Shoot, Reload, Charge.
Right, let's try and work something out for morale now.
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REALISM
Sept 14, 2011 7:32:07 GMT -5
Post by Makarova (M.I.A) on Sept 14, 2011 7:32:07 GMT -5
So, morale. We already have most of the combat progress finished. - Activate in order to charge a unit, or they will activate and charge you. Phase over. - Involuntary movements and fighting occurs before the next activation test. Units fighting each other roll for initiative, by rolling a D10 and adding the majority of the unit Vigour to the score. Highest go first. Exceptions for spears and pikes. - Models in base-to-base contact with an enemy model may attack the enemy (spears and pikes can attack from further back). That's the basic principle at least. Running into a bit of a dilemma here though. Personally I have 80 miniatures, and realistic sizes for these types of battles are between maybe 50 and 300 men. If you have 20 guys, my assumed combat principle of completely individual equipment and attacking the models in base to base contact directly works great. And in my WHFB remake, designed for 50-100 men, the square bases and ranking system made for a good compromise where a RANK rather than a model or unit, would be equipped in a certain manner. Still determined to use round bases though, and as much as it hurts me to admit it I'm considering equipment generalisation for larger battles. All guys in the same unit have the same armour and weapons, even if slight model variations occur. Majority counts? Used that system a while back in WHFB. Obviously you'd still have to pay for anything the unit carried, if more than 50% of the unit carry bucklers you bloody well buy the whole unit bucklers. This makes certain a number of very amusing tactical components disappear, such as the realistic actions of providing the front rank with heavier armour and mixing ranged and melee weapons in a formation. Another option is to go the 40K way. You have guys with almost exclusively the same unit profiles for simplicity of O/D rolls, but can have mixed armour and weapons. Like, I win initiative and attack you and I get through your D (estimated by majority, go 4th ed) with 2 sword blows, 3 axe blows and a spear thrust. Then you assign the wounds to whatever model you fancy in base to base contact, and roll the weapons AP against that individuels AV. I do much prefer it this way in my size of battles, although in really big ones going for a stricter generalisation would likely work better. But come on, who paints 300 minis anyway? Knock on wood.. Opinions? Following the fighting order, for now assume second 40K-inspired example of progression. - Models in base to base contact with an enemy model may attack (spears and pikes may attack from further away), and each model available makes one attach each, rolling their O (plus weapon bonuses) against the majority D value in the enemy unit. The attacks that break through, are then assigned to miniatures of your opponents choice OUT OF THE ONES IN BASE-TO-BASE CONTACT who test the AP of the attack they are designated to recieve against their AV. For example, one sword blow breaks through. Opponent chooses to assign this to a militiaman with a gambeson and a handaxe. I roll my ap (2) against theirs (1), and if I pass that man dies and is removed. - After the initial turn of combat, the unit that goes second in the combat turns move any available models into base-to-base contact with their enemy before fighting (providing that they have lost men). - Player 2 attacks in return following the same principles. After player 2 has attacked, any gaps caused by fallen soldiers have to be filled by moving fresh meat into base-to-base contact. - ACTIVATION. So, about that bloody morale thing... What causes men to break and flee? Poor leadership, overwhelming odds, being outnumbered, fear of abnormal fighters (horses, berserkers, general weirdos), seeing their friends cut down in front of them and having their formation broken. What reinforces courage? A sturdy battle formation, good leadership and encouragement, superior numbers and equipment, disdain for the enemy, experience. Seems to me that WHFB got most of it right tbh. Might just simply keep the combat resolution points system and evolve it into something like this: - 1 pt for every enemy killed. - 1 pt for how many times by you outnumber the enemy, and one basic for just outnumering by any number of models. So if you outnumber with 3 guys, 1 point, if you're 20 to their 10, 2 pts, if you're 30 to their 30, 3 pts, if you're 80 to their 20, 4 pts.. Easy enough? Outnumbering would also represent formations, mass etc. The more men the better. Also actual formations aren't possible on this scale, beyond rudimentary ones. opinons?
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REALISM
Sept 15, 2011 5:51:37 GMT -5
Post by Makarova (M.I.A) on Sept 15, 2011 5:51:37 GMT -5
Read and comment. ;d
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REALISM
Sept 16, 2011 3:45:34 GMT -5
Post by Makarova (M.I.A) on Sept 16, 2011 3:45:34 GMT -5
Tbh I'm happy with the morale system, all of them. I'll probably include all variations of it in the rulebook. Individualism for 10-25 minis, 40K style for 26-150 minis, generalisation for 150-500 minis, on each side, as guidelines. Of course you're allowed to choose whichever system you wanna use.
Focusing on the 40K style system atm, as it's what I'll be using myself and likely what most other players will be using.
So, what happens after combat resolution?
- You round up your points, the opponent round up theirs. You take a Bravery test minus the amount you lost by. Very Warhammer, but it's easy, reasonably realistic and has worked before. I'm very open to suggestions though, but remember the scale we're on.
- If you fail your test, your unit start running away. Dunno about you, but I really like the system in WHFB. You'd roll a D10, and so would the opponent. If theirs is higher you're scattered on the spot providing they have equal to or more models than you. If they have less, they cut down/scatter/capture D10 models. Fleeing unit stays put for now. If their roll is lower, you flee the distance you rolled and they chase the distance they rolled.
Every involuntary action phase from there forth, fleeing units get to attempt to rally at the start of the phase. Rallying is done by taking a Bravery test, modified by normal factors. If they don't rally, they flee D10 again. Then pursuers get to take a Bravery test to stop chasing, and get to activate normally after that. If they don't want to stop chasing or fail the test, they pursue D10. Every time their models reach the fleeing models, if the pursuers outnumber the fleeing unit is destroyed. If not it loses D10 models.
Horses flee D20, same rules apply.
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REALISM
Sept 16, 2011 7:49:05 GMT -5
Post by Rolling Thunder on Sept 16, 2011 7:49:05 GMT -5
Seems to be functional enough, but definitely in need of playtesting.
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REALISM
Sept 16, 2011 7:52:56 GMT -5
Post by Makarova (M.I.A) on Sept 16, 2011 7:52:56 GMT -5
I like playtesting.
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REALISM
Sept 16, 2011 8:12:23 GMT -5
Post by Rolling Thunder on Sept 16, 2011 8:12:23 GMT -5
Well, then let's do some playtesting this Saturday then.
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