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Post by dougeye on May 13, 2014 10:56:26 GMT -5
yeah I must agree about imperium psykers being able to summon demons at will, fluff wise only chars like tigarius are even powerful enough to stop a demon from taking over there mind, I have no problem however with a chaos psyker targeting an imperium psyker and turning them into a demon!
I can see it now all those grey knight players summoning demons llol
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Post by cheminhaler on May 13, 2014 14:55:26 GMT -5
Tigurius would NEVER summon a daemon, even if Ultramar itself was crashing down about his ears. Its down to players to try and play their army in character at the end of the day.
Actually I think they're saving the Grey Knights for a hard counter to daemonology, so much so that anyone not wanting to lose to the latest psyker spam lists will be forced to ally in some GK or just have tons of firepower. All they need to do is change how aegis wargear interacts with certain psychic power trees as its something all the GK have.
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Post by vegna on May 13, 2014 15:07:50 GMT -5
their not daemons, their the emperors mind children. Personally seems GWS is now destorying the game play fluff after destorying the army fluff and the ease of access to the game -.-
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Post by cheminhaler on May 13, 2014 15:30:54 GMT -5
Just wait till you see the Dark Eldar pick-up truck. At the end of the day you'll always come back to look because you know some releases are going to be batnuts insane, at this point.
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Post by ElegaicRequiem on May 13, 2014 15:34:52 GMT -5
Waiting for the DE pick-up artist.
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Post by yvain on May 13, 2014 15:40:45 GMT -5
We still don't know who has access to what. I bet the Imperium does not have access to these trees. Maybe the guard because it could represent traitor guard, but definitely not the Marines.
A few people are reporting the same thing for the proposed psyker changes. The one rumor I posted earlier. If its true powers are much harder to cast. Having a single mastery 2 psyker can make dispelling more realistic especially for the bigger powers like the possession one.
With a mastery 2 Sorcerer you would have a 1/3 chance of getting possession. Then you would need to roll a 4 on your power roll to get a 50% chance to pull off possession. Then you need to pass your psyker test, which should be pretty easy for a sorcerer. Now you have six dice to get three dice rolls of 4. Then even if you pull all of that off, your opponent can dispell on a single 6 roll with up to 6 dice if he has no psyker.
I am too lazy to do that math, but the chances of this succeeding in most armies is low definitely lower than 50%. Psy heavy armies would have better chances of course, but there is a lot of points of failure. In addition, while getting a bloodthirster or something would be clutch, the chances of your getting it off in time are unlikely. It is really more of a desperation move. You could be buy an expensive sorcerer and doing nothing with him all game as he tries repeatedly to kill himself and summon a daemon. In that case it might just be better to take an actually daemon instead.
If this is true it explains why the tree is so powerful looking and psykers themselves will be less of a force multiplier for cheese tactics. Sounds interesting to say the least.
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Post by yvain on May 13, 2014 17:03:24 GMT -5
White dwarf confirms that Guard has access to the malefic tree
In addition, seems like when spending your warp points for the 4+ needed to gen a power. If you get a six twice you suffer a perils.
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Post by AshotNINJA on May 13, 2014 18:16:32 GMT -5
Ive had my eye on that bloodthirster alternative from mierce minitures for a while... guess I got a good excuse now
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Post by Rolling Thunder on May 14, 2014 7:47:15 GMT -5
A Bloodthirster would not even possess a psyker. Greater Daemons require an incredibly amount of energy to summon, and a Greater Daemon of Khorne is not going to manifest into the body of some cowardly witch.
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Post by dougeye on May 14, 2014 11:42:34 GMT -5
well said ^ would be better if summonable creature is linked to mastery level, so an imperial phyker can only summon/be possessed by say a plague ogre/bearer for example but a high level marine psyker could summon the beastier beasts. what if I sacrifice 10 imperium psykers and summon a greater demon of khorne! ?
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Post by cadian95th on May 15, 2014 16:27:55 GMT -5
hey anyone whats the betting that perils will be linked to possession, but possibly in other players control? if perils is becoming super undesirable then maybe with this new wave of daemonology it could be a potential...
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Post by cheminhaler on May 16, 2014 14:22:07 GMT -5
what if I sacrifice 10 imperium psykers and summon a greater demon of khorne! ? I can forsee 4 player alliance games being broken up, as players start accusing others of heresy and turn guns on their allies as well. It could be fun! A Bloodthirster would not even possess a psyker. Greater Daemons require an incredibly amount of energy to summon, and a Greater Daemon of Khorne is not going to manifest into the body of some cowardly witch. In the white dwarf snippet the example given was of a member of the white dwarf team using Ezekiel, the chief Dark Angel psyker and sacrificing him to get the daemon. A space marine psyker who is quite powerful would be a great choice for a khorne daemon trapped in the warp, looking for a way out. To suddenly just be offered a new space marine host form would be the ultimate gift. The fact that he's a psyker is of no consequence; after the possession the daemon would just take the host body over completely.
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Post by yvain on May 16, 2014 15:42:21 GMT -5
hey anyone whats the betting that perils will be linked to possession, but possibly in other players control? if perils is becoming super undesirable then maybe with this new wave of daemonology it could be a potential... There is a rumor that if you are a daemon or Chaos it is easy to cast demonology powers. If you are not you get perils on rolls of 6s to spend mastery points. There is also supposed to be a perils of the warp table you roll on, which could have some interesting effects requiring your to buy codex daemon models The new books are out for pre order. 85 for all three main books. 60 for ebook. 60 isn't actually too bad, but I still with they would let me just buy a regular Rule book separately.
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Post by cheminhaler on May 17, 2014 14:39:17 GMT -5
24th of May?!? Seven days?!?
GW enjoy sneaking up on us, like ninjas, with these stealth rules updates. There needs to be a new phrase for this kind of shenanigans because its .... so shocking and fast. Luckily I passed my Toughness test this time.
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Post by cheminhaler on May 18, 2014 8:56:58 GMT -5
It seems like the risks are too great for the malefic powers. If you have to sacrifice a level 3 psyker to get a naked greater daemon; forget it.
Summoning seems better than Possession; its still 3 warp charge points but you can flood the field with groups of 10 lesser daemons or 3-5 of the cavalry variants.
The scariest thing is that a Tzeentch daemon army will be self replicating and be able to boost its own invulnerable save by a further +1 with Cursed Earth. There's even a 3rd summoning power - Incursion; which allows 3 of the cavalry variant lesser daemons into play. And when they summon enough horrors to upgrade a squad to level 3, they'll be able to sacrifice it to get a greater daemon of tzeentch.
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Post by vegna on May 18, 2014 20:41:18 GMT -5
It seems like the risks are too great for the malefic powers. If you have to sacrifice a level 3 psyker to get a naked greater daemon; forget it. Summoning seems better than Possession; its still 3 warp charge points but you can flood the field with groups of 10 lesser daemons or 3-5 of the cavalry variants. The scariest thing is that a Tzeentch daemon army will be self replicating and be able to boost its own invulnerable save by a further +1 with Cursed Earth. There's even a 3rd summoning power - Incursion; which allows 3 of the cavalry variant lesser daemons into play. And when they summon enough horrors to upgrade a squad to level 3, they'll be able to sacrifice it to get a greater daemon of tzeentch. so basicly what your saying is Daemons are getting buffed and soon the Imperium will collase and we will be reborn in the new reign on the God Emperor? with cheap book, model and paint prices?
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Post by cheminhaler on May 19, 2014 14:20:19 GMT -5
Don't know if its a buff - a lot of people complained about the randomness of the daemon dex even though the basic troops got a lot cheaper/ weaker than before (apparently because of random charts they're forced to use). I don't even have the daemon codex yet so can't really say whether the new discipline will make their codex better.
But it sounds too painful to use the malefic tree - I'd hardly sacrifice something worth more than a naked greater daemon, just to get a greater daemon, unless the thing I was using was down to 1 wound. Level 3 psykers are pretty rare/ expensive units. The only level 3 psyker in the space marine codex is Tigurius. The new guard codex has no level 3 psyker - a Primaris can only be level 1 or 2, like a sm librarian. The only thing the tree has going for it is the primaris power - Summoning, which you don't need to roll for and you don't sacrifice your psyker to use it... but you have to be level 3 to use it.
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Post by Rolling Thunder on May 24, 2014 21:48:21 GMT -5
It seems like the risks are too great for the malefic powers. If you have to sacrifice a level 3 psyker to get a naked greater daemon; forget it. Summoning seems better than Possession; its still 3 warp charge points but you can flood the field with groups of 10 lesser daemons or 3-5 of the cavalry variants. The scariest thing is that a Tzeentch daemon army will be self replicating and be able to boost its own invulnerable save by a further +1 with Cursed Earth. There's even a 3rd summoning power - Incursion; which allows 3 of the cavalry variant lesser daemons into play. And when they summon enough horrors to upgrade a squad to level 3, they'll be able to sacrifice it to get a greater daemon of tzeentch. Commander Kubrick Chenkov: Eye of Terror edition.
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Post by cheminhaler on May 25, 2014 1:07:09 GMT -5
Actually the last part about upgrading horrors is rubbish but daemons do get the Blue Scribes, an HQ choice that can ignore perils of the warp and cast any spell without penalties normally associated (like dying from Possession to get a free greater daemon/ turn). The only downside is that the warp storm chart can affect any unit, including the Blue Scribes.
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Post by Paimon on May 25, 2014 14:40:27 GMT -5
So I just watched a battle report on Dakka in which a daemons player built for maximum summoning madness. They ended up summoning around 2000 extra points of units by turn two, they also essentially denied the other player from even getting a psychic phase, as the Imperials had no where near enough psykers to counter act the billions of dice that the daemons had to deny (which makes sense from a fluff stand point to me). In spite of this, the game ended in a draw, as claiming victory points with the new objectives meant that playing to the objectives once again won out.
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Post by gamma016 on May 25, 2014 18:52:41 GMT -5
I saw the same batrep, however without the imperial knight he probably would have gotten steam rolled. Is new daemon list might be the new winning list even without a deathstar.
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Post by Paimon on May 25, 2014 19:38:03 GMT -5
I dunno, template spam might work?
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