I sincerely hope that this isn't true...

[Captain Zapp Brannigan]

So I've been playing guard for three years now and recently I played against a mate who collects BA.

When he shot at my PCS (Commander, Vox, Sniper, AC Team) and killed the sniper. He said that I would need to take a leadership test as he had killed 25% of the squad. I argued that he did'n't as only one model died which would only constitute 20% of the squad. Now I know that the HWT counts as one model with regards to instant death strength weapons etc but do they also reduce the count of your PCS from a 5man squad down to a 4man squad for the purposes of morale?

If so, that will drastically impact on my decision to field these little buggers.

-And also a bit off topic. 7th Edition... What the hell?

Flamers and blast templates have become pathetic! Considering the majority of my army is kitted out with flamers as it is an urban combat themed force the new rules have hit hard! So according to 7th Ed you can wound any models under the flamer template but only those that can be seen can be removed... the flamer is a purpose built weapon system designed for clearing out enemy models hidden in cover, it now can no longer perform this role! It seems so wrong that you can shoot a flamer through a window and now only hurt the model standing directly in front of the window and not the guy 1inch to the left who is hiding behind the pillar/wall. Does GW not understand the function and capabilities of these devastating weapon systems??

And blast weapons! As if it wasn't bad enough that IG lost 'Lumbering Behemoth' for our iconic tanks-the one thing that was actually good without having to rely on fielding these units en mass all the time- If you scatter, miss and can't see the enemy models your template has landed on you can no longer kill them. This is huge for the traditional LRMBT and the Demolisher (as well as the Executioner and Eradicator). Considering those two nerfs, the LRMBT stayed the same in points cost and the Demolisher went UP the value of a flamer. Yes it is nice that the other tanks went down in points (though the Punisher was always over-costed in my mind to help ease the hysteria from other armies that a 20xshot model now existed...this tank was always going to drop in points) but the fact that the LRMBT and Demolisher are amongst those hardest hit by these rules changes it seems very peculiar their current points cost.

Yes I do appreciate my bias towards the IG plight and yes I may be somewhat (ok substantially) jaded by how these new rules significantly changed the course of our latest battle (Death Company and a 10xMan Assault squad with priest and warlord should have both been obliterated on numerous occasions due to scattering blasts...plus how ineffective my numerous flamers had become) but wow there are some new dooseys in the current edition. :/

As I previously said, I sincerely hope that these changes aren't true and have been misinterpreted.

ZB

[Rolling Thunder]

Can't help with the rules query, can agree that it smells like utter bullnuts. Incapacitating people not in LoS through random ricochets, punching through cover, suffocation, concussion, shrapnel or Ymmot is a fine military tradition.

[Casiarius]

I have been reading the rules a lot recently to get up to speed with 7th Edition, so maybe I can help.

A Heavy Weapons Team is one model "for all game purposes". This is not new, by the way. A Platoon Command Squad with a heavy weapon team has been a 4-model squad since the 2008 codex came out.

Ordinance-packing Leman Russes have been nerfed. Even so, the "Blast" special rule very clearly states that blasts which scatter "can hit and wound units out of range and line of sight".

The "Template Weapons" special rule includes a clause called "No Escape". If the template hits an open-topped vehicle, or the fire point of a building, the unit inside suffers an extra 1d6 hits for free, IN ADDITION TO whatever damage the flamer would normally inflict.

It sounds like your game would have been more fun and less stressful if you had both read the rules first!

[cheminhaler]

^ Exactly as Casiarius says, this has been the case since our last codex (although before that they were just counted as 2 models). The statline for the hw team tells you its a single model with 2 wounds and T3 so under that system obviously they die a lot easier to any S6+ blast or high strength single weapon shot. Even a guard commander with a power fist could kill both models in cc with a lucky punch, never mind orks or marines etc.
That was why so many people went mech and took veterans instead of spamming hwts, like they used to.

[Captain Zapp Brannigan]

Ordinance-packing Leman Russes have been nerfed. Even so, the "Blast" special rule very clearly states that blasts which scatter "can hit and wound units out of range and line of sight".

The "Template Weapons" special rule includes a clause called "No Escape". If the template hits an open-topped vehicle, or the fire point of a building, the unit inside suffers an extra 1d6 hits for free, IN ADDITION TO whatever damage the flamer would normally inflict.

^I haven't got my hands on the new rules as of yet and have been relying on what my friends have been passing on so far. With regards to those two rules mentioned above, it was said during that game that while yes you can still hit and wound models, however only those that can be seen from the firer's perspective may actually be removed. That was the key sticking point that we were arguing over.

[emptyhat]

I hope that isn't true for barrage weapons.

[Casiarius]

Well, I do happen to have the world's most expensive miniatures game rulebook right here with me.

Your opponent is probably looking at page 35 under "Allocate Wounds & Remove Casualties" which does say that you need to have range and LoS to your target in order to allocate wounds to them. Note that there is no second round of LoS checks after wound allocation but before removal. The models get their saving throws, then take their wounds.

This brings us back to Page 158 and the Blast special rule. As previously noted, blasts that scatter off of their legal target "can hit and wound units out of range and line of sight". The fact that you can wound them means that you can kill them. Barrage weapons (Page 160) are blasts and use the Blast rules.

If for some reason, the hair splitting and rules lawyering continues, you might also need to point out the second paragraph of Page 156, which is the start of the "Special Rules" section. It points out (rather needlessly) that Special Rules can bend or break the main game rules.

Captain Zapp Brannigan said:

it was said during that game that while yes you can still hit and wound models, however only those that can be seen from the firer's perspective may actually be removed.

There is nothing in the rules that even vaguely implies that. What it DOES say (Page 35) is "If the model is reduced to 0 Wounds, remove it as a casualty."
Since everyone agrees that you can wound them, they should also agree that once the models reach 0 wounds, they are removed.

Seriously, this rulebook is quite a bit clearer and easier to understand than the old ones, and it even has an index! I don't see how anyone who has actually read the rules could be confused by this. It's quite clear in both intention and in the actual wording of the rules.

[emptyhat]

Casiarius, you are the IGMB's caped crusader of the 7th edition. Swooping into threads and righting wrongs, correcting rule injustices.