Feedback on two 1000 Point General Combat Lists

[IVIilitarus]

I am planning on playing Imperial Guard and will enter the hobby sometime near the end of the year. I'll be ordering the models soon and have settled on two lists that I like.

The goal of these lists is to play a semi-immobile gunline defensive Imperial Guard, focused on infantry and vehicles. I want to build these lists as general combat lists for non-tournament play. Both of my lists are fairly similar, and built around infantry platoons, a pair of Leman Russes and an Avenger.

The lists are below:

List 1

HQ - 130 Points
1. Company Command Squad with Veteran w/Vox Caster

2. Lord Commissar

Troops - 420 Points
Platoon 1
Platoon Command Squad w/Vox Caster
Infantry Squad w/Grenade Launcher and Vox Caster
Infantry Squad w/Grenade Launcher and Vox Caster

Platoon 2
Platoon Command Squad w/Vox Caster
Heavy Weapon Squad w/3x Flakk Missile Teams
Infantry Squad w/Vox Caster
Infantry Squad w/Vox Caster

Heavy Support - 450 Points
Avenger Strike Fighter

Leman Russ Exterminator w/Recovery Gear

Leman Russ Vanquisher w/Recovery Gear, Camo Netting and Lascannon

List 1 Tactics: The goal of List 1 is to form a defensive line, with the Lord Commissar being at the heart of it. The Lord Commissar combined with the Vox Casters will give a huge boost to the army in the form of Orders. The reason I have so many Vox Casters is because I don't plan on merging my infantry squads, due to worries of attacks and abilities that affect entire units. However, if my opponent is unlikely to have such abilities, I will merge the squads. The number of Vox Casters here is really for a worst-case scenario.

The Flakk Missile team will be my dedicated general heavy weapons team and will be prioritising air threats, then vehicles, light vehicles and infantry. The Vanquisher will engage vehicles and the Exterminator will engage light vehicles and heavy infantry. If the ideal targets are unavailable, I'd be happy to just use them to engage whatever is left. The Avenger will be a ground attack craft. I have been told that having dedicated anti-aircraft or aircraft in 1000 point games isn't overly common, so bringing an Avenger in to dominate the skies suits me. I also like the added flexibility it brings, with its strength against heavy infantry, light vehicles and heavy vehicles.

The gist of this force is to be low mobility, but high in firepower and shooty. The goal is to have a strong wall of fire that can engage a wide variety of targets effectively.

My second list is below:

List 2

HQ - 65 Points
1. Company Command Squad with Veteran w/Vox Caster

Troops - 520
Platoon 1
Platoon Command Squad w/Vox Caster
Infantry Squad w/Vox Caster
Infantry Squad w/Vox Caster
20-man Conscript Squad w/Commissar

Platoon 2
Platoon Command Squad w/Vox Caster
Heavy Weapon Squad w/3x Flakk Missile Teams and Commissar
Infantry Squad w/Vox Caster
Infantry Squad w/Vox Caster

Heavy Support - 415 Points
Avenger Strike Fighter

Leman Russ Exterminator

Leman Russ Vanquisher

List 2 Tactics: List 2 is very similar to List 1 and the chief difference is budget cuts to the rest of the force in order to squeeze a 20-man Conscript Squad with Commissar in. To achieve List 2, I have fired the Lord Commissar, replaced him with two standard Commissars. One Commissar is attached to my Flakk Missile Team in order to aid them in passing LD tests for Orders, the other is attached to my grots Conscripts to uh. Maintain morale. In order to fit the Conscripts in, I've stripped the Leman Russ tanks of their gear and left them bare, removed all of the guardsman infantry grenade launchers and fired the Lord Commissar.

List 2 is focused on the same basic tactics as List 1, but with the extra Conscripts, I can use them to bog down enemy heavy melee units in charges, or stand on objectives and die, or hold the line or just generally add 20 more lasguns to the army. I've heard the tip for Imperial Guard that goes 'Boys before toys' and I felt this may have been a good idea.

Questions:

1. I would like someone to explain to me the pros and cons of each list, pick out and help me rectify serious errors and help me understand which list is more viable for a general gunline style play.
2. I would also like to know if stripping the Leman Russes and guards of their grenade launchers to fit in List 2's Conscript Squad was worthwhile.
3. How viable are Mortar teams, whether attached to guard squads or as heavy weapon squads? Should I use them?
4. Can someone please break down each Heavy Weapon Team into how effective they are in the current metagame and generally how useful they are?
5. How viable are my lists in general combat situations?
6. Are these lists a good idea at all?

[Casiarius]

I'm at lunch so I will be brief (for me anyway):

1. The biggest con I see with both lists is... where are the heavy weapons? Lasguns are called flashlights for a reason. The real job of your basic lasgun guardsman is to take a bullet for the real workhorse of the squad, the Heavy Weapons Team. Every Infantry Squad needs a heavy weapon, and that weapon defines the squad's role. Special weapons are nice but not as critical.
2. Conscripts are cheap because they suck... at everything... unless dying is a skill. Even if I wanted to make a unit that would simply tar-pit an enemy assault squad, I'd use a real Infantry Platoon that could carry decent weapons.
3. In the old codex, mortar teams were very niche but they did have some useful applications in spite of dealing very little damage for their cost. Currently, infantry mortars are so utterly inferior to the Wyvern mortar vehicle that I would rate them "worthless".
4 & 5. Both lists are workable, but I think you are missing a lot of what makes Guard infantry powerful.

Efficiencies of Scale (or Blobs are your Friends)
Imperial Guardsmen are really weak troops, but they respond well to buffs in the form of Orders, Psychic Blessings, and buffing characters like Priests and Commissars. The more of these bonuses you can impart on your troops, the more powerful and capable they become. That's why you want blobs. With individual Infantry Squads, a Senior Officer can only issue orders to 20 men, and they'll sometimes ignore those orders because of their low leadership, even with a vox caster. If you have a combined squad of 50 guys, a single order can be powerful indeed! With fewer larger units you can give your entire army orders every turn. And, when you have fewer an larger squads you can afford to give them a character or two to improve their Leadership. A blob with Leadership 9 or 10 will almost never let you down by ignoring an order.
A Primaris Psyker or a Lord Commissar can have a big effect on the success of your force when you multiply their abilities with a powerful unit to lead/buff, but they are largely wasted and likely to be killed in a weak squad.

[IVIilitarus]

Aug 7, 2014 15:27:23 GMT -5 Casiarius said:

I'm at lunch so I will be brief (for me anyway):

1. The biggest con I see with both lists is... where are the heavy weapons? Lasguns are called flashlights for a reason. The real job of your basic lasgun guardsman is to take a bullet for the real workhorse of the squad, the Heavy Weapons Team. Every Infantry Squad needs a heavy weapon, and that weapon defines the squad's role. Special weapons are nice but not as critical.
2. Conscripts are cheap because they suck... at everything... unless dying is a skill. Even if I wanted to make a unit that would simply tar-pit an enemy assault squad, I'd use a real Infantry Platoon that could carry decent weapons.
3. In the old codex, mortar teams were very niche but they did have some useful applications in spite of dealing very little damage for their cost. Currently, infantry mortars are so utterly inferior to the Wyvern mortar vehicle that I would rate them "worthless".
4 & 5. Both lists are workable, but I think you are missing a lot of what makes Guard infantry powerful.

Efficiencies of Scale (or Blobs are your Friends)
Imperial Guardsmen are really weak troops, but they respond well to buffs in the form of Orders, Psychic Blessings, and buffing characters like Priests and Commissars. The more of these bonuses you can impart on your troops, the more powerful and capable they become. That's why you want blobs. With individual Infantry Squads, a Senior Officer can only issue orders to 20 men, and they'll sometimes ignore those orders because of their low leadership, even with a vox caster. If you have a combined squad of 50 guys, a single order can be powerful indeed! With fewer larger units you can give your entire army orders every turn. And, when you have fewer an larger squads you can afford to give them a character or two to improve their Leadership. A blob with Leadership 9 or 10 will almost never let you down by ignoring an order.
A Primaris Psyker or a Lord Commissar can have a big effect on the success of your force when you multiply their abilities with a powerful unit to lead/buff, but they are largely wasted and likely to be killed in a weak squad.

Would you suggest heavy weapons teams as separate Heavy Weapons Squads, or integrated into the Infantry Squads? What are the pros and cons of each?

Also, does the Lord Commissar's Aura of Discipline apply to Orders?

[Casiarius]

All Infantry Squads should have heavy weapons. Using separate Heavy Weapons Squads is a gamble. They do give you the most heavy weapons for the points, but they are terribly fragile... harsh language will kill them. Their leadership is low so they tend to ignore orders and they will run for the hills if one of the three teams is killed. I would treat Heavy Weapons Squads as a backup / optional addition to normal Infantry Platoon heavy weapons. The only scenario in which they might be considered reliable is if you are using both Creed and Kell.

The Lord Commissar's Aura of Discipline works for Fear Morale and Pinning tests but not for general Leadership tests like taking orders.
If you want to buff up things like Heavy Weapons Squads so they will take orders, Creed and his sidekick Kell are your guys.
- Weapons Squads cannot carry vox casters, but Creed is a Human vox caster and everyone rerolls his orders if they fail their check. Creed also gets 3 orders per turn (maybe more if he's your warlord) so he has them to spare on puny squads like these.
- Weapons Squads also can't have Sergents, but Kell can make all nearby squads take orders checks as if they had one (by using his Leadership 8).
The combination of both characters makes Heavy and Special Weapons Squads have the same odds of accepting orders as a regular Infantry Squad with a vox caster. Unfortunately the combination costs a lot of points that could probably be better used for more guns.

[cadian95th]

i would agree, the main real issue is lack of anti tank, albeit 1000 points, something heavy is desirable, maybe something like a demolisher or basilisk?? alternatively you could run a 3 melta gun (with or without demolitioners) vets in chimera or taurox