1000 Point Imperial Guard + Space Marines - Feedback Needed

[IVIilitarus]

I'm putting together a non-tournament list for general play and would like to field a mix of Space Marines and Imperial Guard. The goal is to build a 1000 point army that's cost effective, semi-mobile but heavily focused on shooting and pew. I want to run at least partial Imperial Guard due to my general love for them, but plan on taking Space Marines along for bigger fire support.

The list currently uses Imperial Guard as a Combined Arms Detachment and Space Marine Allies, but given that there's slightly more points in Space Marines, I could really flip it around.

Imperial Guard w/Space Marine Allies, Ranged Army - 1000 Points

Imperial Guard - 440 Points
HQ - 75 Points
Lord Commissar w/camo gear, bolter and close-combat weapon

Troops - 365 Points
Veterans w/grenadiers, forward sentries and Chimera Dedicated Transport
Veterans w/grenadiers, forward sentries and Lascannon Team
Veterans w/grenadiers, forward sentries and Lascannon Team

Space Marine - 559 Points
Chapter Tactics: Iron Hands
HQ - 90 Points
Master of the Forge w/servo harness, bolt pistol and bolter

Troops - 229 Points
6-man Tactical Squad w/Razorback. Razorback fitted with twin-linked lascannon or twin-linked assault cannon
5-man Scout Squad w/sniper rifles and camo cloaks

Elites - 120 Points
Dreadnought w/twin-linked autocannons on both arms

Heavy Support - 120 Points
Dreadnought w/twin-linked autocannons on both arms

Notes about the list:
1. The reason for my high concentration of veterans, Forward Sentries and Grenadiers and the lone Lord Commissar is due to budget reasons. I'm happy to hear suggestions and alternatives, but I may not be able to actually make them work.
2. In choosing between a scout squad and a second tactical squad, I chose scouts because I only had enough points remaining for maybe a 5-man tactical squad and they'd be force to move on foot. I'd rather have camping, cover-saved, harassing scouts than a naked team of tactical marines marching around on foot. I prefer to keep at least 2 troops choices in my Space Marine half of the force because I plan on running kill team with this force using my models and I needed a few more Space Marine models.
3. I like autocannons.

List explained:
Iron Hands Chapter Tactics i used because the Space Marine side is heavily vehicle based. The Master of the Forge will use Bolster Defences on a piece of terrain and my Scouts will park themselves behind it and abuse their shiny new 2+ cover save while harassing the enemy with their sniper rifles. The Master of the Forge and Lord Commissar may also chill in that piece of cover, although the Master of the Forge may need to roll with the vehicles or dreadnought and bash things with a wrench when they get broken. The Commissar might hang in that piece of cover, or he might move out with the rest of the men.

The Veterans with lascannons will be defensive and engage vehicle threats at a range. One team of Veterans is mounted in a Chimera in order to push objectives or otherwise do things more quickly. Everyone has Forward Sentries and Grenadiers because I love defence and am running on a budget, so I needed some point sinks.

The Space Marine dreadnoughts will give fire support with their comical numbers of autocannons. The large volume of fire should be able to scrape away any threats in the sky and seriously mess up enemy infantry or light vehicles, is my idea. The Tactical Squad is mounted in the Razorback as a second mobile element to push objectives or otherwise lend support. The Razorback will have a twin-linked lascannon or twin-linked assault cannon depending on my needs that day.

The force as a whole will try to play defensively and advance slowly, with the mobile elements making thrusts when possible, preferably supported by the rest of the force. My firepower is concentrated around the dreadnoughts and lascannon veteran squads, with the scouts and Razorback giving support when possible.

Questions:
1. Will this list be effective at its general style of play? ie. Shooting army that's effective on defence, but has mobile elements.
2. Is the amount of Forward Sentries and Grenadiers stupid? I'm running on a budget, so I needed some point sinks to save me money and that was one of them.
3. Are there any other units I should look at for this type of play from either army that can do a job better?
4. If this list is ineffective, would you please suggest changes to make it better?
5. Are autocannon dreadnoughts a terrible idea in this context?
6. Why most Guard be so expensive?
7. What other useful tips can I learn about playstyles like this?
8. Is this list suitable for a new player?
9. What are some useful tactics I may use when deploying somewhat plain infantry squads from transports?

Thank you very much for reading.

[Casiarius]

1. Will this list be effective at its general style of play? ie. Shooting army that's effective on defence, but has mobile elements.

Not effective. In order to have a serious shooting army, you need to get the most guns on the field that you can get for your point value. Space Marines are not going to give you "bigger fire support" than Guard because they have to pay for things like their 3+ armor save, and 4 weapons skill, and 4 initiative, and other things do not contribute to their shooting. If you want maximum firepower, you want Imperial Guard. Also see #2.

2. Is the amount of Forward Sentries and Grenadiers stupid? I'm running on a budget, so I needed some point sinks to save me money and that was one of them.

I can understand the desire to save money by taking fewer but higher-quality troops, but this is not how it's done. The major thing that Veterans have going for them is their high ballistic skill and the ability to load up on powerful special weapons. If you equip a Veteran Squad with three Plasma Guns, they can destroy squads of Space Marines, even Terminators. Three melta guns and they can blow up the heaviest tanks. Give them just lasguns? They're a worthless waste of points. All the ballistic skill in the world won't be much good if the weapons you're shooting are harmless.
After you have made the squads effective and dangerous, then they will be worth spending point to protect if you still want the frills.

3. Are there any other units I should look at for this type of play from either army that can do a job better?

If you want to make a defensive and basically stationary force, you can't go wrong with the Aegis Defense Line. It gives your men great cover and you can scratch-build one out of cardboard.

4. If this list is ineffective, would you please suggest changes to make it better?

As a general rule of thumb, any time a squad has an option for more and better guns, do it.

5. Are autocannon dreadnoughts a terrible idea in this context?

I like autocannons myself, but you can get a Leman Russ Exterminator with a Heavy 4 twin-linked autocannon for only a few more points than one these Dreadnoughts. Park a Leman Russ in cover with camo netting and watch fire that would instantly explode a Dreadnought simply bounce off the hull of your Leman Russ. Heck, you can take Leman Russes as HQ choices so you don't have to take any puny pistol-waving HQ characters.

6. Why most Guard be so expensive?

Are we talking money or point cost? The Guard have some very cost-effective units, especially Leman Russes.

7. What other useful tips can I learn about playstyles like this?

If you really want to make a static defensive army, your lists from August were a better basis to work from. Lots of infantry, with officers to give them orders, and Leman Russes. Even so, being too static and defensive is a weakness too. A few mobile units are required to win most battles.

8. Is this list suitable for a new player?

I would not recommend any army that mixes multiple codices. This creates a conflicting mass of special rules that only apply to specific parts of your army.

9. What are some useful tactics I may use when deploying somewhat plain infantry squads from transports?

My general advice would be... if you just have a small number of transports, don't rush them forward and make them early targets. Keep them back and have the troops shoot from the hatch until your superior firepower has cleaned up some potential threats. Remember that disembarking troops do get to move, so they can end up some distance from their transport, even in front of it (useful when you have meltaguns). If your goal in advancing is to take an objective and live, your squad may want to take cover behind their transport or remain inside, even if it reduces their firepower.

On the subject of point sinks and saving money, do you have any of this stuff already? Are you planning to buy it new? Used? Sometimes the things you can buy cheap make the best army....

[treadiculous]

Casiarius has made some good points here.

Veteran squads are valuable due to their access to special weapons, most notably the melta and plasma. These guns cost quite a bit in points and will help with your budget. If you are getting 3 infantry squads you'll get 3 of each special weapon (one in each box).

Auto cannon are versatile and effective, heavy weapon squads are fragile, and heavy weapons in squads hinder the mobility of the squad...

The heavy weapon box can make several more than 3 teams if you have spare infantry - I made 3 mortar, 3 auto cannon / las cannon (these guns can swap) and 3 missile launchers from one box.

However;

Some big tanks will probably suit you more, these can be found fairly cheap 2nd hand.

I notice a lack of anti air, this could haunt you... However some kind of twin linking cover save denying buff can help (the command squad gives good orders for this, add a psychic power and it can be significant). It might be easier to field a hydra though!

Mixing with marines should be to get something which the guard don't have... Psychic powers might be a reason. They have nice toys but the troops can be surprisingly fragile.

What armies might you face and what models do you have already?

It is hard building a list on a budget, better to make an effective 750 list than a 1000 point list that isn't much fun to play.

Keeping a list fairly simple with easily defined roles for each unit will help, if you are fielding something but not sure how to use it effectively it's probably better to get something else which you feel confident employing.

Confidence wins battles (though artillery wins wars)!



Hope this helps!

[emptyhat]

Guard infantry boxes only have a flamer and a grenade launcher, Tread.

[Casiarius]

In addition to the usual after-market trade in 40K bits, there are also multiple companies making "compatible" 28mm bits (since GW failed to prove its points against Chapter House in court). So, filling out your squads with the perfect weapons should not be a problem.

Buying bits does cost money, but there is no substitute for giving your troops the tools they need to get the job done. If you're not willing to give them the right weapons, don't even bother taking the squads.

The flamers from the squad boxes can be used for Special Weapon Squads, Command Squads, or even converted into heavy flamers by adding on some extra bits. The grenade launchers can be given to normal infantry squads in your blobs to give them a bit more firepower at medium range. Grenade launchers are weak but they're a massive upgrade from lasguns, and cheap.

[treadiculous]

I used to swear by grenade launchers.. now i'm not so sure.

there was a very good post on this board concerning the cost of the cheap upgrade guns (flamers and grenade launchers) and made the point that you are better to buy more basic men with lasguns.

it also confirmed that having units with special weapons such as plasma and melta were worth it as long as the unit had a clear purpose and role.

I like grenade launchers and flamers, and flamers have become better in 6th / 7th ed.

Grenade launchers are sort of good still..

[Casiarius]

Grenade Launchers - I wouldn't try to build a special squad of them, since they're not especially good at any task. However, if I have a squad whose basic function is to shoot heavy weapons from long range, like an infantry blob with lascannons, I will happily fill all their special weapons slots with grenade launchers. If the blob does find itself using small arms fire against approaching infantry (especially those without powered armor), I think the grenade launchers can justify their modest price.

Flamers - For any squad that doesn't mind moving a bit, I think flamers are the perfect weapon for Imperial Guardsmen. Being able to automatically hit several enemy models at once with a S4 attack often means that the guy with the flamer does as much damage as all of the lasguns in the squad combined. Many people like to use their Platoon Command Squads as suicide pyromaniac units, which isn't always effective, but it is an easy way to use up a lot of flamers if you happen to have the miniatures. (I think this is a waste of a perfectly good heavy weapons team that can issue orders.)

If you have a lot more plastic flamer bits than you really need, you can use the extra bits to convert regular flamers into heavy flamers. Any infantry squad not wearing powered armor can be decimated by one good heavy flamer attack, and even Marines are not too thrilled when you hit them with a weapon that ignores cover, wounds on a 2+ and can score 6+ hits in a single shot.

[treadiculous]

Here's the post in which grenade launchers are discussed.

Not to say that they aren't good fun, I had a great time with my Grenade Launchers vs some eldar!

commissar.proboards.com/thread/17565/grenade-launchers-lowly-platoon?page=1

[Casiarius]

It has some valid points, but also a lot of very hypothetical navel-gazing over what 5 points should buy you in a perfect test-tube environment. My question for the assembled experts would be this: You have a 30-man blob squad armed with autocannons. What special weapons do you give them?
- None (Lasguns)
- Flamers
- Grenade Launchers
- Meltaguns
- Plasma Guns
You could argue the benefits of any of these choices, but I think grenade launchers are really the best bang for your buck in an "all comers" army.

[gamma016]

In my opinion I'd take either nothing or a flamer. My reasoning is such, plasma and grenade launchers have a similar strength to the Autocannon however they have much lower range. They will be points waisted when firing at far off targets. I don't often find that vehicles tht can be hurt by grenade launchers get all to close to my blobs, an with heavy weapons it would be foolish to move them. The melt gun goes doubly for this as it's most affective in the 6" range. I'd leave weapons like plasmas and meltas for veterans or special weapons squads. Flamers are the only special weapon I'd suggest and that is for purely defensive reasons. With the wall of death special rule you get d3 auto hits on overwatch. In your example that is 3d3 auto hits for an average of 6 hits. That can do some major damage to tarpitting units like gaunts or ork boyz.