A few questions on the rules

[obeliske]

Just a warning this is a bit of a wall of text I start with some explaination of why I'm asking and then there are several questions at the end

So I was looking up something the other day and I came across the Power of the Machine Spirit special ability. Well... a search online did not help as there are literally hundreds of pages and posts going back as far as 2010 (and probably earlier) on it with different people's ideas about how it works and I love stuff like that so after several hours or research and then finally going to get my books out myself and looking into it I thought I'd put in my two cents and see what people say. First off I thought I'd start with the relevant definitions.

PotMS - states you can fire one additional weapon at full BS then normally permitted. In addition this weapon can be fired at a different target unit then any other weapons, subject to the normal rules for shooting.

Snap Shot - states that when you are forced to snap shot your shots are counted as being BS 1 for the purpose of these shots, it also states that snap shots can only be modified by something that specifically states they modify snap shots.

The argument I've seen on this is that PotMS doesn't SPECIFICALLY state that it modifies SS (off topic if they had listed every possible scenario that could modify SS they would probably need a lot of space and make it very hard to change things in the future). I've seen multiple people create artificial barriers for when it does and doesn't work such as when your tanks shaken vs. when you rush your tank.

I argue that you receive an additional shot at full BS regardless of the SS for two reasons.

1, The wording and order of actions of PotMS as stated "You may fire an additional weapon at full BS then normally permitted". If you could normally shoot 0 at full BS because of snap shots then your new total becomes 1 etc. I'd like to point out that obviously if your unable to fire at all then your obviously unable to fire still as it does state your firing is subject to the normal rules for shooting.

2, As I stated if they were to state on the page all the ways in which your SS BS could be affected they would be severly limiting their own growth with the game (case in point look at all the data slates we've been getting recently I may have access to them while my opponent may not and somebody would have to know the rules) as well many people would simply point to this and claim it to be a comprehensive list. I will concede that PotMS does NOT specifically state that it affects SS however as the PotMS single shot would not be a SS it should not have to be listed as per my first point.

As support of this I present a claim by a poster "bigstoney" who argues the other side of the argument and then claims to have phoned the GW hotline to receive an answer and then explaigns what he was told. www.reddit.com/r/Warhammer/comments/2t5zef/Storm_raven_questions_skies_of_fury_while_zooming/
I see no reason to doubt this as time stamps are on the page showing when he was making his posts.

At this point I assume I have made my point that regardless of SS you receive an additional shot in all cases when PotMS applies and would like to start with my questions if you disagree with my assessment please assume I'm right simply for the case of these questions. Feel free to correct my in PM or as an addendum to your posts I have no problem being wrong if you can show it.

How does PotMS interact with flyers according to the rules shots at flyers are resolved as SS which given the above would mean a single weapon could be shot at them without SS which in the case of for example the Astra Militarums Punisher tank main cannon could be as many as 20 shots. I can see the argument being made for the Hard to Hit rule which states "shots can only be resolved as snapshot's unless the model or weapon has the Skyfire special rule". I'd like to point out two things here before proceeding if bigstoney really made that call then GW has ruled that PotMS has priority and overwrites the HtH rule also Skyfire itself does not alter your BS simply "treats" your BS as 1. However as written I think the HtH rule overwrites PotMS as it's more specific as it states "all" shots can only be resolved as snapshots. The problem becomes at this point I believe the order of actions. During the shooting phase you declare your targets then HtH comes into effect then after all shooting PotMS does which means you get that single unmodified shot. What do you guys think here?

According to the rules each weapon on a vehicle can only be shot once, how does that interact with PotMS? If you choose not to move during the movement phase and fire all your weapons do you get to fire an additional one of your choice as per PotMS? Or are you SOL as you've already fired all your weapons? That being said how do you decide which one gets to fire an additional time? In the example above a Punisher shooting at a flyer received 20 SS shots with its main gun against a flyer then providing the player gets to pick which gun shoots he could use that same main gun to fire an additional 20 shots against that same flyer (or another unit as per PotMS) which quite frankly is horrifying (though tbh not nearly as horrifying as some flyrants I've seen).

On to easier and less complex questions!

According to the rules ordinance weapons cannot SS however I've seen several people state they can provided they do not fire blast nor template weapons. Apparently this comes into play primarily for the AM though no units come to mind. Is this true can an ordinance weapon fire SS provided it's neither a template nor a blast? Please cite references on this one guys and gals thank you.

The AM Chimera - I saw a post over on the Imperator Guides to Astra Militarum (May 2014 Astra Militarum Unit Overview part 2 - and to be fair this is where I first saw the previous question as well) the author states you can use the Chimera to shoot at 4 different targets with a single tank. I could see an argument being made for two perhaps if the Chimera in question was not a dedicated transport. How does this fellow arrive at 4 and is he right? Again please cite references guys and gals..

That's it for now thank you for your time and patience everybody. Also I will be copy pasting this post on a number of other websites to get as many outlooks as possible on the issues. If you'd like a complete list for yourself to follow along please feel free to send me a private message where I will happily provide you with a complete list Have a great night everybody and good hunting.

[treadiculous]

okay..

lots of questions!

In regard PotMS I would say that it used to be a reduced BS shot before the change to 7th, therefore I would think the shots fired are more likely to be reduced to snap shots than firing at full BS.

Regarding ordnance, I am unsure though suspect that this may be a roll over where blast weapons cannot fire snap shot regrdless and ordnance has a seperate interaction with snap shooting - the hellstrike missile of the valkyrie is ordnance but not large blast.

Regarding shooting 4 targets - the forward hull and turret guns of the chimera can fire at 1 target, the lasguns may possibly be aimed at another and / or the embarked may fire from the hatch as well - I am not sure how these overlap. Getting a 4th target is interesting as I would say a 3rd is a push (Unless you flame a group of squads).

not the best answers!

hopefully they help a bit though!

[cheminhaler]

Yeah he's right about Chimera shooting at 4 targets; the lasgun arrays can shoot 3 lasguns each at targets on either side (fixed 3 lasgun shots which must be BS3 even if veterans are using them), then the vehicle itself shoots at a target in its front arc and finally two other passengers shoot at a different target to their transport from the top hatch.
page refs - p.80 main rulebook, at the bottom of 'fire points' for passengers shooting at different target to transport vehicle.
p.40 guard codex - lasgun arrays - 6 models in embarked squad can shoot from the lasgun arrays at targets on either side (3 lasguns each)

I'll get back to you on more when I get more research time.

[emptyhat]

Apr 16, 2015 15:11:19 GMT -5 cheminhaler said:

Yeah he's right about Chimera shooting at 4 targets; the lasgun arrays can shoot 3 lasguns each at targets on either side (fixed 3 lasgun shots which must be BS3 even if veterans are using them), then the vehicle itself shoots at a target in its front arc and finally two other passengers shoot at a different target to their transport from the top hatch.
page refs - p.80 main rulebook, at the bottom of 'fire points' for passengers shooting at different target to transport vehicle.
p.40 guard codex - lasgun arrays - 6 models in embarked squad can shoot from the lasgun arrays at targets on either side (3 lasguns each)

I'll get back to you on more when I get more research time.

Did they FAQ that?

The Chimera is entitled to shoot at a different target to the passengers just like with any transport, so that's two targets. (Chimera turret and hull weapon, and transported units firing from the top hatch. Just as Treadiculous said)

The problem is the third and forth targets.

The Chimera has a special rule called Lasgun Arrays which represents the two sets of three lasguns that stick out of the Chimera model. This lets up to six embarked models fire the six lasguns. The rule states that each array must keep to the same target (so you can't split up the three lasguns from an array), and that the arrays do not have to fire at the same target as the Chimera's other weaponry. The arrays use the ballistic skill of the Chimera, not the models firing them and can fire at full ballistic skill no matter how far the Chimera has moved, though they fire snap shots if the Chimera has suffered crew shaken or crew stunned.


Some people have argued that the lasgun arrays should fire at the same target as the embarked models firing from the hatch, the rule says that the arrays don't have to fire at the same target as the Chimera's weapons it doesn't specifically exempt them from firing at a different target to the passengers using the firing point, nor does it state that they must.

In my opinion though the wording of the rules seems to lean towards four targets and the addition of the lasgun array special rule is to compensate for the reduction of models being able to fire out of the Chimera's top hatch from 5 to 2, so switching from a heavy weapon and three plasma guns firing from the hatch to just a heavy weapon, or two plasma guns but you get three lasguns on either side that can shoot things seems like a fluffy compromise that was thrown in to avoid nerfing the Chimera too much while balancing it.

[cheminhaler]

I haven't printed the latest FAQs; I'll need to check.

I think in the normal rules only one model can fire from a vehicle fire point; unless the vehicle says more. So the chimera and rhino firing two models from the top is more than normal, not a reduction.

If true 4 different targets makes chimera lists slightly more solid.

[emptyhat]

I meant that they reduced the number of models that can fire from the top hatch from the last codex.

[cheminhaler]

I see what you mean now; the lasgun arrays make up for the loss of those 3 firing points.

Only veterans seem to lose out slightly in that they're better off taking either 2 specials or 1 heavy weapon/ heavy flamer, rather than 1 hw and 3 speacils like they used to have all firing from the chimera. They also lose a point of BS shooting from the arrays.