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Post by Trooper One-Nine-Seven-Four on Nov 26, 2014 18:47:47 GMT -5
That makes it your fault as well. And yours too. And all the white people... But certainly not Brown's mother and step-father ("Burn this female dog down!") who did such a poor job of raising him that he grew up to be a stoner-thug who committed a robbery, and then was dumb enough to attack a police officer and try to take his gun, or his friend who lied about everything to the media ("Hands up! Don't shoot!") and incited the initial riots.
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Post by RedsandRoyals on Nov 26, 2014 22:34:57 GMT -5
That makes it your fault as well. And yours too. And all the white people... But certainly not Brown's mother and step-father ("Burn this female dog down!") who did such a poor job of raising him that he grew up to be a stoner-thug who committed a robbery, and then was dumb enough to attack a police officer and try to take his gun, or his friend who lied about everything to the media ("Hands up! Don't shoot!") and incited the initial riots. Things aren't as clear cut as you've apparently decided. I would have liked there to at least have been a trial. In other news, General Winter commeth.
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Post by Trooper One-Nine-Seven-Four on Nov 26, 2014 23:24:55 GMT -5
I'm basing what I say off of the evidence that was presented during the grand jury session, which is readily available to anyone who is able to discern through the screaming of the race-baiters, appeals to emotion, and apologists for thuggish behavior. And that is the purpose of a grand jury: to determine if a criminal charge should be brought, and a case go to trial. In this incident, they decided that the evidence showed that the shooting was a righteous one and that no charges be filed against Officer Wilson. Of course now we get to see what the Feds say in the Civil Rights investigation that is running in parallel...
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Post by RedsandRoyals on Nov 26, 2014 23:41:04 GMT -5
I'm basing what I say off of the evidence that was presented during the grand jury session, which is readily available to anyone who is able to discern through the screaming of the race-baiters, appeals to emotion, and apologists for thuggish behavior. The witness testimonies are confused enough that I think a trial would have been worthwhile. More facts would have been presented in a more public forum, and there would have been at least some closure provided by the fact that it at least went before a court, even if Wilson was found innocent at the end of it. It would have been more thorough, may have calmed some of the most heated emotions, and could have provided a better picture to the public. But I think the real issue is that it does bring up valid points about race in the US, especially when interacting with law enforcement, as well as militarization of law enforcement, and how police respond to protests, both peaceful and violent. This may have been a poor flagship for those problems, but that doesn't make them any less serious or real, or any less worth addressing. Dismissing what a lot of the peaceful protests are about, what a lot of the anger and anguish is about, as race baiting and 'Blame Whitey' is exactly as ignorant, dismissive, and unhelpful as the position you're trying to demean. This is complex situation that taps in to even more complex issues. Automatically discrediting and dismissing the other side's concerns does absolutely nothing to help the matter.
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Post by Trooper One-Nine-Seven-Four on Nov 27, 2014 0:30:17 GMT -5
I am not dismissing the peaceful protestors, I am aiming my comments specifically at the looters and vandals who were pillaging and trashing things, throwing rocks, and shooting, at the police, and setting fire to businesses that (from what I have seen) more often than not seem to be owned by African Americans. How is that advancing the cause of the black community, and doing anything to dispel harmful stereotypes about the behavior of minorities? I applaud the peaceful protestors, some of whom the other night formed barriers to prevent looters from trashing stores and also assisted law enforcement by pointing out troublemakers, but the fact remains that there are race-baiters (at all levels) who stir the pot, and the results are what we have seen since the shooting in August in that blighted city. I also find it sad, and disturbing, that certain elements of the community automatically cry racism anytime there is an officer involved shooting between a white law enforcement officer and an African American, yet they are deafeningly quite on the topic of black on black violence, which accounts for far more injuries and deaths in the black community than white LEO on black shootings, and THAT is the genesis of my "blame whitey" comments.
Also, my point about the step-father remains: the video was on CNN the other afternoon of him yelling after the grand jury results were announced (at least five times by my count) "Burn this female dog down!"
Anyone who has watched the news saw what happened that evening. Also, my point about the dreadlocked friend who made (false and likely inflammatory) statements at the outset remains, as he (conveniently) neglected to mention the fact that they had just committed a robbery, or that Brown was carrying marijuana on his person, or that Brown had been smoking so much pot recently to have enough THC in his system to be twice over the legal limit for incapacitation in states where it is legal to smoke pot.
Was the eyewitness testimony confused? At times, yes. However, that is A KEY FACT about ANY eyewitness testimony: it isn't very reliable. Look up recent research on how the human brain remembers information and synthesizes it when someone is describing something they witnessed (it's quite fascinating, and basically is a neurological effect similar to what is seen in the telephone game) in which by recalling an incident we recreate the incident in our mind's eye, and details change each time. That's why eyewitness testimony is supplemented by forensic evidence and the science that backs it up. And that's why this was put before a grand jury, because it is specifically their duty to examine a case (and there were dedicated lawyers from the prosecutors office whose sole duty was to attend to homicide cases) to determine if evidence supports moving forward with a prosecution, and in this instance the grand jury members decided it didn't. That is the legal process at work. However, the well has been so poisoned by the race-baiting elements and talking heads I mentioned earlier to such an extent that people WILL NOT ACCEPT that the process did what it was supposed to do. And if you believe that a regular jury trial, had it reached the decision that Officer Wilson was innocent, would not have resulted in the same kind of outcry and horrible behavior, then I have real estate on Jupiter that I'd like to sell you...
Race relations in this country are going to crap, and I am calling out those (of all races) who are pushing agendas of lies in an effort to promote violence, which is actually a type of domestic terrorism. I have friends in law enforcement who have to be out there on the streets in American communities dealing with the fallout of this crap. Although it's tongue in cheek, Chris Rock is spot on in this sketch:
Also, and many of you are too young to remember this, but what would have happened if whites (or segments of the white community) had reacted in the same way to the OJ Simpson double murder trial verdict as elements of the black community have in Ferguson (including elements from outside of the community who came in specifically to start trouble)? There is ZERO excuse for such behavior, regardless of what racial group is being discussed.
I think everyone needs to go and watch all seasons (prior to the most recent one, which Aaron McGruder wasn't involved with) of The Boondocks; Aaron McGruder operates on a thesis (among many) that since the Civil Rights movement, a large element of the black community has, unfortunately, urineed away the gains that were made, to the point that if Dr. Martin Luther King were alive today, he would be ashamed of the state of affairs. Positive role models are desperately needed, along with fixing the socio-economic problems of crushing poverty, single parent homes, and poor access to education. However, as long as "thug life" remains worshiped (for lack of a better term) to the extent that it is, anti-intellectualism is celebrated (there was a piece I saw several weeks ago about the perception in the black community that if an African American is educated they "aren't being black"), and youth neglect their education because they think that they can all be pro athletes or rappers, then the situation is just going to deteriorate even further than it already has.
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Post by RedsandRoyals on Nov 27, 2014 1:43:37 GMT -5
I agree with you that the rioting and looting doesn't help anyone's cause, nor does automatically assigning guilt or assuming that it's a case of a white officer shooting someone because he's black. I am also well aware of the issues with eye witness testimonies (One of my psy teachers gave us a demonstration that involved getting a pie in the face), that's specifically why I mentioned there was issues with them, both those for and against Wilson's guilt. As for the grand jury, I'm viewing this more as a matter of necessity than a matter of function of the law. Would it have prevented all violence? Probably not. Would it have at least prevented some? Maybe. Maybe it would have given time for tempers to cool. There wasn't any rioting that I recall after the George Zimmerman trial, so maybe it might have helped. There's a lot of anger over the fact that they wouldn't even hear the case in court, and getting a trial probably would have assuaged that.
Back to your comments, though. They didn't come across as regarding just the looters and rioters, they came across as dismissing the whole movement and the anger felt over the entire debacle there. I apologize for misreading your words, but I suggest you take a little more care in your wording when making comments like that. I'd also like to know where you've heard this "Thug Life" stuff about Brown. Aside from the alleged assault, I've only heard testimonies to the contrary about him (admittedly, they're not unbiased, but still). Smoking a lot of pot is kind of poor evidence, since I know people, black, white, Hispanic, etc, who do it, and aren't in to the Thug Life sort of thing.
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Post by Paimon on Nov 27, 2014 2:14:34 GMT -5
It sounded like you were basically condoning Darren Wilson shooting Mike Brown because he was a 'thug'. If that isn't your intent, then you should probably try harder to make it clear what you're talking about. The punishment for petty theft isn't getting shot in the street, the punishment for smoking pot or being inebriated in public isn't getting shot in the street. The punishment for felony assault, and attacking a police officer isn't getting shot in the street. Due process exists for a reason, a police officer killed an unarmed boy instead of using non-lethal take downs, which he was supposed to be trained to do. Leaving a body in the street for four hours is massively problematic. Coming out with Riot Gear and Police Dogs in response to a candle light vigil is clearly antagonistic. There were several live feeds available of the early protests, and peaceful protestors were getting shot with rubber bullets and tear gassed. Reporters were getting tear gassed and arrested for no reason. Protestors were getting arrested for no reason, and with no charges laid. Shutting down reporter access in the immediate aftermath was incredibly suspicious.
Most of the rioters are white anarchists from out of town, and frankly, given the endemic of white cops shooting black boys and men and getting away with it, I think it's probably understandable that people are getting angry about it. Being denied even a trial is insane, and even the American Bar Association agrees with that based on the evidence presented.
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Post by Trooper One-Nine-Seven-Four on Nov 27, 2014 5:14:09 GMT -5
I would direct everyone to the medical examiner's assistant's report, as well as the CSI report, about why it took so long to process the scene, and why the Brown's corpse was "left in the street for so long." What it boiled down to, in essence, was that there were hundreds of people who gathered around the scene, and they started to become abusive/violent towards the police, and at one point there was gunfire nearby, and several people crossed the police tape. The investigators had to suspend the processing of the scene in order to herd the trespassers back out and re-establish the perimeter to keep the scene and evidence from being compromised, as well as to make sure that people weren't sniping at them. Link to all volumes of the grand jury proceedings. Download them and read them.And also: horsepucky. Brown outmassed Wilson by almost a third (people are saying Wilson and Brown are/were both 6'4", but Wilson is 210 lbs., which is what I weigh at 5'8" which means he's actually on the thin side, while Brown was almost 300 lbs. which is NFL linebacker-size). Brown assaulted Wilson and was trying to take his gun from him; the forensic evidence amply confirms this. At that point Wilson was justifiably in fear for his own life, and under Missouri law his use of deadly force was thus justified. See this analysis. If you assault a police officer, all bets are off; it is a Darwin Award-level move, especially if you try to take their firearm. Also, I am dismayed at how people are not placing the blame for the incident, and the subsequent unrest, rioting, and destruction squarely where it falls: on Michael Brown and his actions. He committed a robbery, he then assaulted a police officer, and he then tried to take the officer's gun. He has nobody but himself to blame for his actions, and any other suggestion to the contrary is a red herring. I am using the term thug, because that is what Brown was by his own actions. My references to "thug life", rappers, anti-intellectualism, and forgoing education because people think they can all become pro athletes are just a few examples of things that I personally feel have been dragging the African American community down starting in the 1980's, when I was a kid. However, and take these links with a grain of salt (except for the final one which is an official government publication), there is photographic evidence of Brown posing and throwing gang symbols with one likely being a sign used by the notrious Bloods gang which seems to be confirmed by this publication from the New Jersey State Police. As to my comments, I am engaging in gallows humor, and am also calling bullnuts on the previously mentioned actors who are stirring the pot. Ultimately, I would like to see the following question answered: How much of the perception that there is racial bias by police against blacks is due to those LEOs who genuinely are "bad actors" (and there are some, I will grant that) versus how much of it is just butthurt directed against law enforcement because they are doing their jobs? I can think of at least one other group, which I have identified with in the past and have friends who are still active in, that has a history of being hassled by the police, and it's a group whose members are mostly whiteys... However, in the interactions I have had with LEOs over the years (aside from social ones with my LEO friends) I have found them, as a whole, to be a highly professional group who do care about their communities, and will treat you with respect if you treat them with respect (which again gets back to part of Chris Rock's viddy-oh on "How Not to Get Your Ass Kicked by the Police."). And again, if the "endemic of white cops shooting black boys and men" is so abhorrent, then where is the outcry about black on black violence, which is responsible for far more injuries and deaths of African American men and boys? Also, I'd like to see evidence that it's white anarchists who have been causing the majority of the rioting, as I've not come across any such reporting. Regarding militarization of the police: it's unfortunate, but that is the world we live in now. The flatfoot beat cop armed with a .38 revolver of the 50's and 60's is not capable of dealing with the variety of threats that are extant in our society today (or that may arise in the future). Paimon, are you certain that it was the American Bar Association that was critical of the grand jury process, and not the National Bar Association (which is a group of predominantly black lawyers, and not the same thing as the American Bar Association)? My search for ABA criticism of the process lead me to the NBA article, which is the one I thought I saw earlier yesterday (and I couldn't find anything on the ABA site), and needless to say I think the NBA may be slightly biased on this issue. If you've got a link, please share.
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Post by ElegaicRequiem on Nov 27, 2014 10:23:31 GMT -5
Turkeyday Tidings!
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Post by RedsandRoyals on Nov 27, 2014 11:40:35 GMT -5
Out of curiosity, trooper, what part of the initially peaceful protests mandated the near military response that showed up almost right away? You said it's "unfortunate, but it's the world we live in now", but as far as I can tell, there's no reason it needs to be, aside from police getting handed all sorts of ex-military equipment under misguided anti-terrorist funding programs.
Also, what's your thought body cameras for police?
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Post by Paimon on Nov 27, 2014 11:54:38 GMT -5
Sorry, it was the National Bar Association. There are enough American this, and National that, that my poor Canadian Brain blurred them together. Of course accusing a bunch of black lawyers of bias, and not a bunch of white cops trying to get their buddy off of a murder charge seems a bit iffy too.
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Post by Julian Sharps on Nov 27, 2014 12:01:26 GMT -5
Okay, okay, okay! Hi, hi, everyone! Listen up, because this is really important to know about! All the questions you've had? Everything you've ever wanted to know? Well, guess what? I'm going to tell you! All of the things that have been bothering you; I will explain all of it!
Happiness is your responsibility. Happiness is your responsibility. Happiness is your responsibility. Are you really happy now? Well, you'd better be.
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Post by cheminhaler on Nov 27, 2014 12:17:08 GMT -5
This case reeks of similarity with the Duggan shooting in London, which sparked the London Riots in 2011. Also you had the Zimmerman shooting case, in the US, which was bound to stir up race relations.
At the end of the day the officer shouldn't have come on national television to pour fuel onto the fire by claiming that everything he did was so pristine and paladin-like that the deceased was just automatically guilty. Again its like the Zimmerman case; OMG he was eating Skittles and fizzy cola with cough medicine! Give the corpse the electric chair hysteria.
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Post by RedsandRoyals on Nov 27, 2014 13:31:38 GMT -5
The Zimmerman case was different in that he WASN'T a police officer, and had been specifically instructed by the police to not put himself in the situation where he ended up shooting Martin. I just mentioned it as an example of a racially charged case that didn't result in riots after the verdict.
Does anyone remember those huge riots in France a few years ago after the police shot an arab kid?
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Post by buddha on Nov 27, 2014 15:57:23 GMT -5
In Ireland the greatest controversies are of the government charging us for water and our poor treatment of asylum seekers. I wish no offense when I say I'm glad I live here rather than America, it just seems so complicated and dangerous.
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Post by ElegaicRequiem on Nov 27, 2014 16:11:36 GMT -5
In Ireland the greatest controversies are of the government charging us for water Yes. In MD, we get taxed for the water that God sends on our rooftops and driveways. (It's not much, and it's for fixing the Chesapeake,(we should bill PA for that) but it's the principle of it.)
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Post by buddha on Nov 27, 2014 16:22:07 GMT -5
They were the most violent protests Ireland seen since the Troubles,at one point a TD was trapped in her car by protesters. My dad works as a water technician for the Council and he explained all the effort and expense that goes into making the water suitable for taps but still 160euros per adult and 80euros per child a year was a joke, but I'm glad that's our biggest complaint as a nation.
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Post by emptyhat on Nov 27, 2014 17:14:45 GMT -5
This case reeks of similarity with the Duggan shooting in London, which sparked the London Riots in 2011. Also you had the Zimmerman shooting case, in the US, which was bound to stir up race relations. Something I remember about the 2011 riots in London was that there were a lot of spurious claims going around at the time, rioters looting a children's hospital, setting fire to the London Eye, releasing all the animals in the zoo, the army being deployed around the banks, they all turned out to be fake but I heard them repeated a lot on the street by people who wanted to condemn the rioters. From what Paimon was saying there was video news feed for awhile but I'd be careful about believing stuff that might be a rumour or lie, especially if there was a lack of reporter access for parts of the riot.
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Post by Adkenpachi on Nov 28, 2014 7:26:11 GMT -5
The london riots were a joke, MPs kids were out stealing TVs when they could just go and buy thousands of them. People just looting cause their idiots and setting fire to corner shops cause theyre bored. Also Mark Duggan was a class c**t, gangster for life and he had a gun... yeah, the guy was a saint like his mother said. The world is a better place without people like Duggan and Brown.
The police in America should go on strike, then people will beg for a police force.
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Post by Julian Sharps on Nov 28, 2014 11:44:36 GMT -5
The london riots were a joke, MPs kids were out stealing TVs when they could just go and buy thousands of them. People just looting cause their idiots and setting fire to corner shops cause theyre bored. Also Mark Duggan was a class c**t, gangster for life and he had a gun... yeah, the guy was a saint like his mother said. The world is a better place without people like Duggan and Brown. The police in America should go on strike, then people will beg for a police force. Not in the Deep South or Detroit.
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Post by emptyhat on Nov 28, 2014 11:48:17 GMT -5
The london riots were a joke, MPs kids were out stealing TVs when they could just go and buy thousands of them. People just looting cause their idiots and setting fire to corner shops cause theyre bored. Also Mark Duggan was a class c**t, gangster for life and he had a gun... yeah, the guy was a saint like his mother said. The world is a better place without people like Duggan and Brown. The police in America should go on strike, then people will beg for a police force. It might have been a joke but it, like many riots was a little deeper in sentiment then that.
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Post by Adkenpachi on Nov 28, 2014 13:19:03 GMT -5
The london riots were a joke, MPs kids were out stealing TVs when they could just go and buy thousands of them. People just looting cause their idiots and setting fire to corner shops cause theyre bored. Also Mark Duggan was a class c**t, gangster for life and he had a gun... yeah, the guy was a saint like his mother said. The world is a better place without people like Duggan and Brown. The police in America should go on strike, then people will beg for a police force. It might have been a joke but it, like many riots was a little deeper in sentiment then that. No, it wasn't. It was purely people stealing cause they thought they could get away with it, which most did.
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Post by Rolling Thunder on Nov 29, 2014 11:19:57 GMT -5
We didn't have riots up here, because we don't riot over nothing.
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Post by Paimon on Nov 29, 2014 12:45:57 GMT -5
We riot over hockey games. The Toronto Maple Leafs are kept from ever playing for the Stanley cup by a secret cabal of Canadian spies. Win or lose, the resulting riots would rip the country in half.
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Post by buddha on Nov 29, 2014 19:41:47 GMT -5
We didn't have riots up here, because we don't riot over nothing. I believe the same thing applies in Ireland, we're too lazy combined with the fact that our politicians are mostly incompetent rather than corrupt, so there's nothing the rioting would fix.
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