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Post by cheminhaler on Feb 12, 2010 15:02:17 GMT -5
Chem-Inhalers = win *thinks back with nostalgia to the day when my whole army was stubborn, and then some* I quite like penal legionnaires as they are now. Don't forget they have explosive collars on their necks to make them Stubborn. It also reminds me of RT days, when Mechanicus Adepts used to control the explosive collars, just like how Commissars do their summary execution thing. I think there were other doctines in an old White Dwarf, one that I could never track down. If anyone out there has that WD, then please, please post the details of those missing doctrines here. Edit ; (I googled it..) The 'new' doctrines were actually a way of bringing abhuman/ genetically enhanced humans into the game (en masse). I found a list of the new doctrines via google/ the lexicanum. Afriel Strain Beastmen Gland War Veterans Ogryns Ratlings Squats Nightsiders wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/AbhumanNow how cool is that? A whole army of Ogryns? Woot! If you add these to your thread, Makarova, then I promise to build a time machine, go back in time and replace all religions with worship of the great Saint Makarova! ..and I'll make them build a new church to Saint Makarova in central London. If anyone has that issue of WD, don't forget to post us the details, or PM them to me or something.
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Post by Lord General Armstrong on Feb 12, 2010 19:28:16 GMT -5
Whole army of ogryns. Remembers back to codex catachans when ogryns were troops.
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Post by Makarova (M.I.A) on Feb 12, 2010 22:06:28 GMT -5
I have the WD issue and have planned to bring in the doctrines for a long time. I'll scrounge it up and get working later today. Penal Legionnaires stay gone. You can still make them Stubborn if you wish (Chem-Inhalers), but the Desperadoes ability has no place in such a generic unit. They're better represented as Conscripts or Infantry Squads. Updated Chem-Inhalers and Die-Hards to be equally balanced (I think), since now when doctrines can't be taken for free anymore Chem-Inhaler is always a better choice unless you want to use Iron Discipline as well. Chems now give you Stubborn, while Die-Hards give you the ability to be pinned rather than falling back when loosing 25% to shooting, and the ability to regroup under 50%. While I'd like units to be able to be Stubborn without drugs, this felt like the most sensible way of doing it and you have to agree the name Die-Hards is damn suitable now.
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Post by Makarova (M.I.A) on Feb 15, 2010 3:06:06 GMT -5
Gave back close combat weapons to the people... While I'm still sceptical, all other units in the codex have them as long as they have knives and I guess changing that would be a bit too much.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 17, 2010 6:19:16 GMT -5
Pardon me, but what I would really like to see are horse back mounted regiments so maybe you could add something like;
Cavalry Regiment- +10 points, any unit may take it. +1 Toughness and unit now counts as Cavalry...
Just a suggestion, but I'd love to see it done...
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Post by Makarova (M.I.A) on Feb 17, 2010 10:57:43 GMT -5
+1 T is for bikes only.
I'll consider making it an alternative regimental organisation for +2 pts/model.
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Post by Makarova (M.I.A) on Feb 24, 2010 12:53:56 GMT -5
Added Cavalry Company and Sappers, and cleaned up a lot of wording. Should be clear and safe for abuse now. I'm lazy and haven't added the WD doctrines yet, but will soon. Promise.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 25, 2010 1:13:37 GMT -5
Awesome.
I think you need to reword the Sappers doctrine as it says that Roughriders cannot be Sappers. Shouldn't it say that Sappers cannot be mounted?
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Post by Makarova (M.I.A) on Feb 25, 2010 3:40:40 GMT -5
Yes, silly me. Thank you.
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Post by Rolling Thunder on Feb 28, 2010 7:26:38 GMT -5
My name is Rolling Thunder and I approve of this system. I've finally made my Mercenaries army list with it.
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Post by Makarova (M.I.A) on Mar 2, 2010 17:33:12 GMT -5
After much thought I decided to make heavy stubbers special weapons. Yes, everyone will spam command squads and veterans with 3 or 4 of them. But they already do with all other special weapons, and it's damn effective (especially plasma, melta and flamers), so I don't see why I couldn't add in another just as good option there. For more versatility if nothing else, the poor things really need a proper fire support special weapon that isn't an unreliable grenade launcher or a bloody plasma gun.
They cost 10 pts each, hopefully a fair cost.
Will also give this an overhaul soon, with the WD doctrines and a proper unit roster and profiles for the changed units, collected together in the first post.
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Post by The Envoy (AWOL) on Mar 2, 2010 18:53:13 GMT -5
Penal LegionnairesRemoved. Their profile is good to represent traumatised, gibbering psychotic wreck convicts, yes. Problem is though, there are like one on 10.000 that survives to turn into such a hardcore survivor, and they don't exactly single them out and group them together with other oddballs. Typical penal legionnaires are just scared losers used as cannon fodder, perfectly represented with conscripts. Die-Hards or Hardened Fighters could also be handy if you want them to be more crazy. Okay, I have a big issue with this argument. For one, penal legions are recruited from Guardsmen who are sentenced to death for their crimes, and choose to try and find retribution on the battlefield. They are not just riff raff pulled from penal colonies to die. Sure, they're used as suicide troopers, but that doesn't mean they're just going to let themselves die. The second thing, 1 in 10,000 in reference to millions of penal troopers is a much larger number than you give credit to. That's about 100 insane survivors per million, and there are probably a hundreds of millions of penal troopers in the Imperium. Just because the numbers seem small, you need to take into account the scale of the statistics you're quoting.
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Post by Makarova (M.I.A) on Mar 2, 2010 18:59:46 GMT -5
The codex is meant to represent the majority of troopers that might appear in battlegroups. The majority of Penal Legionnaires are hapless losers, not rampaging psychopathic monsters. That's what I represent. If you want monsters, feel free to slap loads of doctrines on them.
Not letting yourself die doesn't mean you automatically get insane statistics. Most Guardsmen are in the same position. Used more or less as suicide troops, scary aliens at the front, angry commissar at the back. Choosing to die on the battlefield doesn't guarantee you being hardcore. Quite the opposite actually, as it's kind of cowardly to put up the sentence. My point still stands, a few of them are psychos, most are random losers, 'slaught or not. Give them chem-inhalers to represent drugs.
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Post by RedsandRoyals on Mar 2, 2010 19:03:49 GMT -5
Actually, if you read the Codex, it's really only muderers and people who WOULD be of use on the battlefield that are offered a chance to redeem themselves in the Penal Legion. Psychopathic killers, torturers, people who are too cruel and ruthless even for the Guard, these are the guys in the legions. Gibbering wrecks and cowards, if not shot on the spot, are killed by firing squad (which is in almost all IG fluff, btw).
So no, the ones in the penal legions aren't the losers. They're the ones who still may be of use to the Imperium, which is exactly why they're in the Penal Legion in the first place, instead of hanging from a scaffold with a loop of rope around their necks.
Reds
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Post by Makarova (M.I.A) on Mar 2, 2010 19:08:04 GMT -5
I hardly think being sick in the head validates Furious Charge and Counter-Attack. But yeah, that's me I guess. I like the unit stats-wise, kind of funky and not too overpowered, but they make little sense.
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Post by RedsandRoyals on Mar 2, 2010 19:11:58 GMT -5
It's not being sick in the head, per say. It's being sick in the head and using that sickness to become a ruthless killer. Reds
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Post by Makarova (M.I.A) on Mar 2, 2010 19:13:43 GMT -5
Meh. I guess I can't argue with you. I'll give it some thought and bring them back if I feel like it. I mean, it's not like anyone will ever play this beside me, my brother and RT.
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Post by Rolling Thunder on Mar 2, 2010 19:26:03 GMT -5
Actually, if you read the Codex, it's really only muderers and people who WOULD be of use on the battlefield that are offered a chance to redeem themselves in the Penal Legion. Psychopathic killers, torturers, people who are too cruel and ruthless even for the Guard, these are the guys in the legions. Gibbering wrecks and cowards, if not shot on the spot, are killed by firing squad (which is in almost all IG fluff, btw). So no, the ones in the penal legions aren't the losers. They're the ones who still may be of use to the Imperium, which is exactly why they're in the Penal Legion in the first place, instead of hanging from a scaffold with a loop of rope around their necks. Reds "For every hundred miscreants that die under the enemies guns, one psychotic killer emerges, screaming his insane anger." So, by that, you've got a 1/100 chance of getting a knife fighter, Psychopath or Gunslinger. Not good odds at all. In fact, most of the Penal Legions fluff is just that - random, disposable losers, explosive collars, sometimes drugged up to the eyes. Not sociopathic, cold-blooded killers. Hell, if anyone should have Rending it's Storm Troopers, not random flunkies.
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Post by RedsandRoyals on Mar 2, 2010 19:36:43 GMT -5
Well, if you want to quote entries....
We have "Reprieved from the Death Cells by some talent or Uncanny Instinct"
And "They are the most vicious, ill-tempered and unstable group psychopaths and killers in the Imperial Guard."
And "Among them can be found some of the most skilled warriors of the Imperial Guard, reckless heroes who's specialized skills are required by the Emperor once again. "
And "Banded together in covert teams, Penal Legionaries are tasked with the most dangerous missions, where their unique skills and unorthodox abilities are essential for victory."
So that should give you an idea of what the Penal Troops in the codex are. They AREN'T the random goons who die in huge numbers under enemy guns. They're a team comprised of those 1/100th chance troopers who are the best of the best, by skill, luck, or madness. That's what the penal troop unit represents when you have it on the field, not the sniveling cowards.
Reds
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Post by Makarova (M.I.A) on Mar 2, 2010 19:40:43 GMT -5
That just smells "Last Chancers" to me, not "your average penal legionnaire squad". It's obvious to begin with that they mainly included them to satisfy Last Chancer fans rather than for actually fitting the codex, and it only becomes more apparent now.
Hell, if they're that über-badass, why do they have WS3 and generally crappy statistics? Why are they even Troops?
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Post by RedsandRoyals on Mar 2, 2010 19:48:46 GMT -5
Because most civilians would have WS 2 at best, and that WS 3 (and BS 3) represents the training they have as Guardsmen. Their abilities that they can roll represent their special skills and specialization, the reason why they've lived long enough to be formed into those squads. Remember though, they are still human, and still Guardsman, hence their basic stat line. Also, yes, this is obviously a nod to the Last Chancers-inspired idea of a squad of condemned soldiers being sent on suicide missions because, even though they'll probably die, they still have the ability to get the job done. I think it's a great unit that can add a lot of flavor to the fluff of an army, actually. You do make a good point about them being troops, though. I would actually suggest moving them to elites, since a kill team like that would make better sense as being something special you call on, rather then having an army of them (And it would be nice to have an elites choice worth taking aside from the Psyker Squads ). Reds
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Post by The Envoy (AWOL) on Mar 2, 2010 20:16:52 GMT -5
I should also point out that the people these squads represent are some of the most vicious and brutal killers in the Imperium. You're not going to be on the same level as everyday men and women, because those are the people these troopers normally prey on.
You've got blitz killers, thieves, rapists, the worst of the worst. They're not going to be run of the mill conscripts by any stretch of the imagination.
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Post by Makarova (M.I.A) on Mar 3, 2010 4:05:12 GMT -5
You've both made that clear, apparently I missed that certain piece of fluff and used logic instead (I tend to do that rather than actually read all the dumb things they write).
I suppose I'll bring them back. As Elites, that is. Should I give them options for (two?) special weapons and Chimera as well? Seeing as they're supposed to be specialised.
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Post by Rolling Thunder on Mar 3, 2010 5:18:48 GMT -5
@reds: Being 'Special' does not make one into a miniaturised Genestealer. Being an angry psychopath does not make one into a Ork. Regardless of what the codex says, there is no logic or precedent for Penal Troopers as they are now. GW has clearly decided 'Guard need assault troops', pulled up some old fluff for us and completely pulled the abilities out of it's ass.
Much as I personally love Penal Troops (Beastmen squads!), I can't really say that anything about their profile is even modestly reasonable or sane.
Personally, I'd say that the most logical thing to do would be to parcel up their abilities to Storm Troopers and Veterans - if anyone is going to be a competent knife-fighter, it's a trained commando, not some random hive ganger who's tormented by his Oedipal desires.
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Post by Makarova (M.I.A) on Mar 3, 2010 5:26:22 GMT -5
The abilities themselves are a bit too random to be applied to Veterans or Stormies.
Damn it, now I'm torn. I'll keep them out for now.
Luckily one of the WD doctrines involves Beastmen, who have Furious Charge...
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