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Post by Sister Galatea(M.I.A) on Mar 14, 2010 18:15:43 GMT -5
Having looked through the Blood Angels codex rumors and back through my SM codex I am in a state of curious ponderings.
Aside from a few army choices I can't see many reasons why I competitive player would decide to play Vanilla Marines over Blood Angels. I don't normally say this when it comes to 40k armies as I like to factor in fluff, style and expertise- but Blood Angels just seem like a better army.
I don't mind the insane Special characters so much. Or the ridiculous psyker powers. Or the really powerful new machines of war. Or the very effective Blood Angels universal rules. Ok, well, maybe a little. I mean, have you seen some of this stuff? Insane. What gets me is I feel like Blood Angels are also sort of stepping in on what I thought to be the reasons for playing Vanilla marines- Combat Tactics. And lets not forget Stern guard vets. Blood Angels get those too...
This is not QQing. I don't play Vanilla Marines and based off of the neat looking models and fluff am most likely picking up a small Blood Angels force. I just feel like codex creep has become codex dropkick and the subtle art of balancing armies has basically become a game of patience- if you wait around for your army to be updated you WILL just be plain better statistically when that shiny, hot new codex finally hits the shelf. GW has sales to make and I understand that. I just feel like there is a better way of going about it then this.
What do you guys think about this and also, what are your general thoughts on how GW is conducting their new codex launches in 5E?
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Post by Ymmot (M.I.A) on Mar 14, 2010 18:30:43 GMT -5
Well lets see, I still think the vanilla marines can be played effectively and competitively, they're still a good all around sort of choice. The specialized chapters are really good at what they do. BA are fast, SWs are mean and nasty in CC...but you can still get that by going vanilla, and you can create a much more balanced list when you stick with the plain ol ultramarines codex.
If you want customized lists that really follow a specific theme that you yourslf have envisioned I think that the vanilla codex is still the way to go.
It can be played effectively if you really focus on what you want to do with it...
I personally feel that the specialized chapters come off as bit more cookie cutter when it comes to doing what they do.
They have very obvious strengths, and seemingly fewer weaknesses because they are more specilized...the freedom you have with the vanilla codex means you are much more likely to make mistakes when building a list competitively.
Though the truth of it is I just like to cheer for the guys with fewer obvious strenghts...
Go Underdogs!
but that's just the way I happen to feel about it.
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Post by ElegaicRequiem on Mar 14, 2010 18:53:42 GMT -5
My feelings about the BA update can be described with, "It's about time." I mean, we've waited for a while to have a force that might be playable at all points levels. Now there's hope on the horizon. I can't wait until sisters and DE get updates, too. That'll be, "It about freakin' time!"
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Post by RedsandRoyals on Mar 14, 2010 19:41:19 GMT -5
Codex Creep? We call it 'Codex Facepunch" at my store sometimes, but the idea is the same.
Now, I've always said that I'll glady admit that the Guard Codex was pretty insane, but this is just absurd. When the general consensus at my store is the Vendetta is undercosted, a Baal being able to Scout, take the Hellstorm cannon, AND count as fast, is just way too much, unles it costs somewhere approaching 200pts. The Deepstriking Land Raider is what really just urineed me off. The only reason the Land Raider can really be smacked down is BECAUSE it has to move across the board. If this thing drops in, and you can't get a Melta near it, you're just screwed. The Goddamn flying Librarian Dread was just the icing on the cake.
Now, I don't mind old armies getting new, good codecies. The Space Wolves got a solid one, as did the Tyranids. They aren't overpowered, but added a lot of cool stuff to bring them up to scratch (there are issues with the Tyranid one, but that's neither here nor there). But this is just absurd. If you just want to play the best MEQ army you can, then you'd play Blood Angels now. There is no reason to take regular SM unless you do so for the fluff, really. Yes, the SM Codex is decent, but the BA codex is just balls out crazy when it comes to cool troops and tanks, as well as getting quite a bit of the stuff that the current SM do.
Maybe I'm overreacting. Maybe everyone is just hyping the cool stuff, and it'll turn out to be just an SM army where everything is more expensive. But if it's all cheap, all crazy, all as bonkers as it's made out to be? Then it'll be the first time GW has made codex that actually urinees me off.
Reds
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Post by ElegaicRequiem on Mar 14, 2010 19:54:09 GMT -5
Wait... dsing LR? Even if I fell my heart beating faster at the thought, it had better be over 300 points.
So far in 5th ed, the new codecies have been mostly balanced (with the exception of the IG), and the SW one is one of my favorite codecies ever due to the balance in there. I'll admit I'm biased, and think the BA should be a bit OP, but some of the things I hear... really?
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Post by RedsandRoyals on Mar 14, 2010 20:09:54 GMT -5
Wait... dsing LR? Even if I fell my heart beating faster at the thought, it had better be over 300 points. That raises your eyebrow, but not the friggin Dreadnought that can FLY and has a FORCE WEAPON? The DSing land Raider has been tossed around, but I can't confirm it one way or another. The Storm Raven is bad enough though. From what I hear, it's the same cost as Dante from the current 'Dex, but can carry a dread, and apparently has an assault ramp. It also follows the Valk rules about being able to DS after moving flat out. Oh, and meltas only get 1d6 against it. And this is from someone who thinks the Ven and Valk already smell vaguely of cheese The source I have wasn't able to get a look at the Land Raider section of the new Codex, so I'll just say it's rumored, and leave it at that. From the look of it, everything is pretty damn expensive to take, so maybe it'll all balance out. We'll have to wait and see. Reds |
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Post by ElegaicRequiem on Mar 14, 2010 21:09:55 GMT -5
In my experience, dreads die too quickly for that to have even held my interest in any way other than, "Oh... a flying dread might be a novelty..."
I plan to see if I can get my hands on the 'dex tomorrow.
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Post by Sister Galatea(M.I.A) on Mar 15, 2010 3:48:06 GMT -5
Ultimately, we will have to wait and see what the dex looks like officially. But black boxes have been going around and certain people are rumored to have peeked inside...
I agree with Reds. It is just...well, crazy, some of the things I've seen. The BA appear to be more than just a specialized army- they seem to be just plain better! I know the BA fanboys have been wanting this update (and they most certainly deserve it!) but, yeah, some kooky stuff in store!
If the time waited for an update is the reason these guys are so "housey", then I shudder to think what the Dark Eldar are going to be like. Combined with GW's anxious approach to even launching this army again due to fear of poor sales- I predict that everyone's favorite Space Dark Elves will be replacing their cardboard skimmers with sleek, cruising monolith variants- garbing themselves in power armor (they pirated a Space Marine Chapter of course!)- and fielding BigPapa Avatar of Khaine. (he is the Avatar's in real life daddy. Who'd a thunk it.)
As always, I play for the fluff, lore and interesting models (and I won't lie- these new BA minis look mm mmm tasty!) but many people play for sport and competition and I detect a disturbance in the Force of 5E codex balancing. Not to mention GWs new approach at making some of their more expensive models cheaper to field and accessible to field so they can sale as many as they can! (Dreadnaught army? An army of Dreadnaughts? Really? Absurdity aside, can you imagine what that might cost...)
Anywho, only the future will tell! Black Templar are whispered to come out in the next year or so- I can't wait to see their floating church rocket launcher hangar bay that has a half dozen Landraider models hot glued to the front, rear and sides for that extra little protection in the grim, dark future of space.
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Post by grimlock on Mar 15, 2010 4:43:14 GMT -5
Wait... dsing LR? Even if I fell my heart beating faster at the thought, it had better be over 300 points. It's the same points as the one in codex space marines  IIRC they can be taken as dedicated transports for pretty much any unit. |
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Post by The Envoy (AWOL) on Mar 15, 2010 9:51:28 GMT -5
Anywho, only the future will tell! Black Templar are whispered to come out in the next year or so- I can't wait to see their floating church rocket launcher hangar bay that has a half dozen Landraider models hot glued to the front, rear and sides for that extra little protection in the grim, dark future of space. That's actually not a bad idea... >.> <.< Igor! Bring me my hot glue gun. We have work to do! |
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Post by Ymmot (M.I.A) on Mar 15, 2010 11:04:45 GMT -5
I predict that everyone's favorite Space Dark Elves will be replacing their cardboard skimmers with sleek, cruising monolith variants- garbing themselves in power armor (they pirated a Space Marine Chapter of course!)- and fielding BigPapa Avatar of Khaine. (he is the Avatar's in real life daddy. Who'd a thunk it.) Sexy. But seriously I think we all oughta just wait and see, every new codex in 5th has created some sort of panicked reaction like this on the internet, and so far none of them has been as bad as some people make them out to be, sure it'll be tough at first...but sooner or later somebody will develop the tactics to beat them and a moment of balance will be restored before the next big threat comes looming over the horizon. I admit I have really no idea what is in store with this latest release, rumor has it that the Blood Angels are going to be kick you in the face scary, but they're still just MEQs with subtle variations of the same toys...they're not the end of 40k as we know it. My Imperial Guard will have the tools to take them out and I am not afraid. The Blood Angels will pay somewhere for what they get, an adjusted points cost across the board most likely. They will be powerful but like all marine armies they will be few in number and unlikely able to take everything in the codex that makes them appear to be so deadly unbeatable. Just like IG, sure we have lots of dangerous toys...but good luck finding a place in your list for all of it. Land Raiders as transports for every squad...Oh no! yeah...a transport that costs how much? how many are they really going to take before they blow all their points on a tank that can't shoot its weapons half the time it is on the field...and how many meltaguns will that afford me? HmmHmHmm...let me think. A lot. Oh...and they can deepstrike? Gee how considerate...now they're right within range! *Gets steamrolled and assaulted to death.* ... So I'm not worried, I'll just have to adapt to this new situation...all of us will have to adapt most likely...but that's no big deal is it? the same ol tactics are bound to get stale at some point anyway. |
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Post by ElegaicRequiem on Mar 15, 2010 11:43:09 GMT -5
Two step process for defeating marines of any color:
1. Fire Leman Russ
2. Repeat
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Post by Hetfiltrator on Mar 15, 2010 11:54:03 GMT -5
I am going to start a chapter. The Sons of Sanguine. And I will be using the furiouso's with blood talons. Those things are vicious.
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Post by Ymmot (M.I.A) on Mar 15, 2010 12:20:13 GMT -5
Hmm...battle cannons make everything better.
Just watch out for those pesky terminators...
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Post by The Envoy (AWOL) on Mar 15, 2010 13:34:19 GMT -5
But that's what Plasma Death and Flashlights are for.
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Post by ElegaicRequiem on Mar 15, 2010 16:49:10 GMT -5
Making GW managers rage when you're in the right: win. Good show.
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Post by Laughing Man on Mar 15, 2010 18:00:33 GMT -5
I like vanilla because sometimes really good vanilla is nice and tastes great and i'm talking about ice cream because mmmmmm i have ice cream. Any way i'd say do both if you are patient enough. I've only pre-ordered one blood angels box and that's the sanquinary guard and i'm debating turning them into raptors for my chaos.
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Post by cheminhaler on Mar 16, 2010 10:29:37 GMT -5
Personally I already have an all jump pack/ termie army, so all I need to do is get rid of the old jump pack command, replace them with honour guard, get some new DC and THE SANGUINOR. Normally I don't use SCs, but that model looks great. Not sure whether to use my chaplain or home-made captain as the other character. The captain has lightning claws.
Rough riders.. The bane of all jump packer armies.
I expect it to be a very small force, not very competitive (have you seen points cost on assault marines?), although fast.
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Post by ranwulf on Mar 17, 2010 16:13:14 GMT -5
I must say this as a Blood Angel player: PLAY BLOOD ANGELS IF YOU LIKE. Here is one thing, people keep saying that it's going to be Cheeeeeeeeeeese and OP, but thing is WE DONT HAVE THE CODEX YET. When people start playing with it they will notice how it works, and then, they will see if is Cheese of not. Now, in my opinion, go Blood Angels cause I LOVE CHAPLAINS, DREADS, and of course, Assault Marines. Oh and Lemartes.
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Post by cheminhaler on Mar 18, 2010 7:59:59 GMT -5
Rough Riders go into Termies, why the hell would you waste them on jump packers? I meant in smaller games. Usually I only have 5 termies in 1500, the full 15 in 2500 points. I've only ever fielded the whole lot in one Apoc. game. I'm even thinking of ditching the termies completely, but can't decide what else to add in. Dreadnoughts might be a good idea. |
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Post by Rolling Thunder on Apr 10, 2010 16:18:13 GMT -5
Update: It's cheese.
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Post by ElegaicRequiem on Apr 10, 2010 16:47:44 GMT -5
Reminder: So is the IG codex.
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Post by Ymmot (M.I.A) on Apr 10, 2010 17:01:07 GMT -5
Some units are pretty scary...
but most books these days have cheesy lists people can put together and throw at you.
Just wait till GK, Dark Eldar, and so on. Maybe after everyone has flying skimmer transports it will all even out.
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Post by ElegaicRequiem on Apr 10, 2010 17:12:57 GMT -5
Oh, I can't wait to see the new DE codex, and hear all manner of whining about it. It's the original cheese codex that was quickly abandoned, and become all but useless.
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Post by Rolling Thunder on Apr 10, 2010 17:21:41 GMT -5
No, Psyker Battle Squads are cheese. The rest is merely decent. Even then, Psykers are remarkably fragile and fundamentally situational. Sanguinary Guard with Sanguinary Priests are not situational, they're all-crushing behemoths that drop in en masse in a single turn and wipe out virtually all armies save those optimised to beat them.
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