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Post by commissargaunt on May 2, 2010 12:16:34 GMT -5
I must say though (possibly to the great chagrin of Melissa) that the Sisters of battle are one of the more misplaced Imperial armies. they are not the hyper-elite space marines who can really pummel most foes in a battle but cannot easily prosecute a prolonged campaign due to their small operational size. They are nowhere near the capabilities of the Mechanicus; whose Titans and other forces are designed for winning a total war rapidly. Neither are they the Imperial Guard; with the power to prosecute long and sometimes drawn out campaigns but often lacking a rapid strike capability with all but their most elite units. Now the sisters are in more of a middle ground between the two big imperial armies; the Guard and the Marines. They posess nowhere near the numbers of the Guard; but then they are not comparable to the superior space marines either; lacking a really rapid strike capacity. It seems to me that they would be most effective when combined with another Imperial force; as a powerful spearhead for the Guard or as support units for the marines when they engage the enemy in large concentrations. Obviously the Sororitas are at their most effective as a domestic role in dealing with large cults and powerful heretics but still, hardly a purely military powerhouse in their own right. I would like to know what others think on this topic (especially Melissa, whom I expect a rapid response from ) what are the Sisters' true role, aside from being the defensive military arm of the Ecclesiarchy?
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Post by ElegaicRequiem on May 2, 2010 12:27:58 GMT -5
Except the new IG codex makes them much faster, and more capable of a rapid strike than marines. At least the blue ones.
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Post by commissargaunt on May 2, 2010 12:29:41 GMT -5
No I mean on an army group level. The space marines can move their forces and deploy rapidly whereas the Guard take time to organise, gather the required manpower, equipment and supplies and move to the warzone.
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Post by Melissia on May 2, 2010 12:45:34 GMT -5
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Post by commissargaunt on May 2, 2010 13:04:05 GMT -5
No, what I meant was what are the particular strengths and weaknesses of the sisters that make them unique. For example the marines are superb warriors but few in number whereas the Guard are extremely diverse and numerous but often slow to deploy.
And waht is the particular comat niche that the sisters fill that no other imperial army can?
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Post by Melissia on May 2, 2010 13:23:33 GMT -5
The Imperial Guard CAN Be quick to deploy, and in small elite numbers. Stormtroopers and veterans deploying by valkyries from low orbit (wearing breathing masks).
The Space Marines can also deploy in force, with lots of tank backup (just of a different kind than the Guard), and have done so in the past.
All of the Imperial armies are capable of deploying in more than one way, even if they tend to be best in deploying in a specific way.
The strengths of the Sisterhood I've already stated several times before, but to reiterate:
The Sisters of Battle are highly motivated, highly skilled soldiers in power armor. They deploy in larger numbers than Space Marines, but smaller numbers than Imperial Guard, and tend to focus on short-ranged firepower and firefights. They are also okay in an assault, better than the Guard typically is (in the fluff anyway). Their strength is, simply put, their ability to kill things quickly in short ranged firefights, and destroy large numbers of enemies with abundant flamers and heavy flamers.
Their weakness is the logical reverse of this-- they lack the long-ranged firepower of the Guard, and don't even have as much as the Marines. In close quarters combat and at short range, they are absolutely deadly in the hands of a skilled commander; however, they have to GET to short range first.
They can deploy quickly as well, especially in the current iteration of this thread with dropships-- this is because they are employed by the Ecclesiarchy, which has less red tape than Munitorum to begin with.
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Post by commissargaunt on May 2, 2010 13:36:18 GMT -5
What about their deployment capabilities? Ships and the actal process from alert to them being put into a conflict zone?
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Post by Melissia on May 2, 2010 14:19:58 GMT -5
That depends on how far away they are?
If we're talking about when they're already on planet, they just need to get their gear and go. From an orbiting ship, they deploy via dropship. From another planet, they hire or otherwise convince a ship to take them (spiritual salvation can be a very powerful bargaining tool combined with money).
The Imperial Church is one of the, if not the single richest organization in the Imperium.
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Post by commissargaunt on May 2, 2010 14:26:43 GMT -5
Actually I would say the Administratum would take that title. It literally controls all of the Imperium's resources bar some minor exceptions.
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Post by Jackal-0311 on May 2, 2010 14:47:52 GMT -5
Just form my short study of the SoB they appear to be close quarter battle gurus.
I cant see how they would/could deploy more numbers then the SMs on any one drop. I would think that the major limiting factor would be the power armor issue. I would think that power armor is vary rare and expensive. Also, you have increased their -I-to 4: your reasoning for this was because of there training and experience and equipment. Well, two of these three factors would take massive amounts of time to gain (years), this within its self would be a limiting factor in their numbers. I see them being deployed in a strike team manor.
As for the Ophelia Pattern Heavy Bolter, cool idea. I have something similar in my fluff as well, based of a Heavy Stubber.
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Post by Melissia on May 2, 2010 17:25:30 GMT -5
Read C:WH and shutup. Yes, that's rude, but I'm tired of hearing it. I made NO change to the initaitive of Sisters; Battle Sisters, Dominians, and Retributors are all I3, as they represent the least experienced of the Sisterhood (in the sense of close combat especially). Novitiates are I3 for a similar reason. The other units are I4, as the elite of the Sisterhood have ALWAYS been I4. Celestians, Seraphim, and Heroines were I4 in C:WH. The other units in my list that are I4 (And not all of the new ones are-- see Vindictors and Novitiates) are similarly close combat veterans or rare, powerful troops. Just like I told RT, this is not up for debate. I'm not changing them to I3. EVer. Actually I would say the Administratum would take that title. It literally controls all of the Imperium's resources bar some minor exceptions. The Adminstratum collects taxes. The Ecclesiarchy collects tithes. Same thing more or less.
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Post by Jackal-0311 on May 2, 2010 18:17:47 GMT -5
Well I missed read, that's my fault! I will retract that part. As for the rudeness, I'll chalk that up to...your devotion your good work. So what about the power armor? You've stated, that you feel that the SoB can bring more troops to a battle then SM, but less then guard. Do you mean that as a total, they can bring more troops in to a battle, but not all of them would have power armor... correct?.Or would power armor be allot less difficult to obtain for an organization like the Ecclesiarchy? Sorry but I'm just trying to connect the dots. As I said before, vary coo, I admire your work and your resolve.
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Post by Melissia on May 2, 2010 18:32:33 GMT -5
No, I mean they can bring more power armored troops to a battle than Marines can.
The armor the Sisters use is not the same as the armor the Marines use. It's cheaper simply by size alone, nevermind the internal components being different. It still enhances the strength of the user (Thus powered armor), but nowhere near as much; enough to make the user able to lift heavy weapons and fire them from the hips with ease, but not enough to let them easily tear through a Leman Russ' rear armor. It also provides different features in the helmet, different life support features, and so on and so forth. Finally, because it's not made for Astartes, it can be more easily produced; equipment made for Astartes is extremely restricted and illegal for most humans to own (examples of those who might own such an artefact are Inquisitors, Governors, and Rogue Traders).
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Post by Jackal-0311 on May 2, 2010 19:02:36 GMT -5
Wow, well spoken and that makes allot of sense now. Looks like the SoB can bring an industrial size can of whoopass.
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Post by Melissia on May 3, 2010 10:57:19 GMT -5
A new special character idea. The costing is temporary, I'm wondering if it needs to be increased or decreased. Special Character HQPalatine Atraea of Rekkei III [/b][/tr] [tr][td]Palatine Atraea[/td][td]5[/td][td]5[/td][td]3(5)[/td][td]3[/td][td]3[/td][td]4[/td][td]3[/td][td]10[/td][td]3+/4++[/td][/tr][/table] Type | Composition | Wargear | Special Rules |
[/b][/tr] [tr][td]Infantry Independant Character Special Character[/td][td]1 Palatine Atraea 0 or 5 Celestians[/td][td]Chaosbane Warpbane Power Armor Rosarius Frag/Krak Grenades[/td][td]Adepta Sororitas Assault Tactics Furious Charge We Shall Emerge Victorious![/td][/tr][/table][/center] - Grants 2 Faith Points
- May purchase five Celestians as retinue for 75 pts
- Retinue must be equipped with bolt pistol and close combat weapon.
- Retinue may purchase power weapons as special weapons as per the unit's entry.
- Retinue may purchase a transport as per the unit's entry.
- If Palatine Atraea purchases a Retinue, the Retinue gains Furious Charge as well.
Assault Tactics Celestian Squads may be taken as Troops Choices in an army led by Palatine Atraea. Chaosbane and Warpbane A pair of one-handed, Master-crafted power axes which each add +1 to strength, for a total of +2. Against servants of Chaos (Chaos Marines, Chaos Daemons, Lost and the Damned) they always strike first. We Shall Emerge Victorious! Each wound Palatine Atraea makes in close combat counts as two for the purposes of determining who won the combat.
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Post by ElegaicRequiem on May 3, 2010 11:04:08 GMT -5
If she's getting FC, I'd lower the I to four. I'd also make her 185 points due to giving FC to any squad she joins.
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Post by Melissia on May 3, 2010 11:07:30 GMT -5
Hrm. But at the same time, she's T3 without eternal warrior...
I suppose that's made up by her having a retinue, but still... it's very difficult to balance a glass cannon unit... adjusted her initiative though.
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Post by ElegaicRequiem on May 3, 2010 11:13:08 GMT -5
Also, do the celestians retain the dedicated transport options?
Nevermind.
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Post by Melissia on May 3, 2010 11:20:54 GMT -5
Right, sorry about that.
However, the Celestians do NOT have a sister superior in the squad. It's just five Celestians.
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Post by Rolling Thunder on May 3, 2010 11:40:24 GMT -5
I'd drop her down to about.... 145 points. Essentially, she's pretty close to Straken, except your not paying for the command squad, her Furious Charge is lessened in aura, but she's more survivable.
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Post by Melissia on May 3, 2010 15:32:02 GMT -5
Let's compare her to the Adepta Sororitas Heroine, the basic default HQ of the Sisters in this codex.
With a Sanctified Sword, she'd have roughly the same statline (aside from furious charge's bonuses), for 105 points. So that means that Atraea is paying 70 points for the following:
-- Furious Charge (Also applies to her retinue, but ONLY her retinue) -- Striking first against certain enemies -- Taking Celestians as troops -- Each wound caused by Atraea counts as two for the purpose of determining who won the combat
How much should these abilities be worth? RT says 20, Req says 80...
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Post by ElegaicRequiem on May 3, 2010 16:37:49 GMT -5
Just taking celestians as troops alone is worth an extra 20. The FC thing is probably 10-20 depending on what she joins. It might be worth even more if the allies rules are in effect in roughly the same way as in C:WH. Striking first against Chaos stuff is only worth anything when your fighting Chaos, otherwise it's maybe 10-20 depending on what you try to smack. They're power weapons, which also ties into the double wounds for resolution being worth a good 10-15 points. Combine that with an assault celestian retinue, and it's maybe even 20.
So, four things that are maybe worth 20 a piece.
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Post by commissargaunt on May 3, 2010 16:52:56 GMT -5
I can say that the counts as 2 casualties rule is worth at least 30pts. Thats an immensely powerful tool if you cause even two or three wounds with her, especiallly with her being not half bad in combat and all.
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Post by Melissia on May 3, 2010 16:58:23 GMT -5
The FC thing is probably 10-20 depending on what she joins. Read the rule for it again; it only applies to her retinue if hse has one. She must purchase the retinue as extra, and they are actually MORE expensive than normal Celestians. It might be worth even more if the allies rules are in effect in roughly the same way as in C:WH. It isn't. They're power weapons, which also ties into the double wounds for resolution being worth a good 10-15 points. Do not consider that in any way whatsoever. That has already been accounted for; please read the post you're responding to again and note that I compared her to a Heroine with Sanctified Sword and Bolt Pistol. the Sanctified Sword is a one-handed master-crafted power weapon which gives +2 to strength. Combined with the pistol, the Sanctified Sword gives an extra attack as well (the pistol is just a normal CCW in close combat). By all technicality, it's BETTER to have a power weapon and bolt pistol than two power weapons. You get the same effect as two power weapons, but you also get a bolt pistol to fire, too.
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Post by ElegaicRequiem on May 3, 2010 17:19:36 GMT -5
I notice now that you changed the way granting FC to others works.
And I'm not really going to compare how one thing is to another, when it would alter tactics. I'm noting how one part of her entry is rather synergistic with two others, and thus should raise the price accordingly.
She has an effective S6 on the charge, ignoring armor, and getting two re-rolls out of it. Even if having two ccw's is included in the A3, that's likely to be three dead MEQ's on the charge, and two every turn thereafter. If they're Chaos, then even fast enemies don't matter, and she'll still get those dead enemies in there. If she and her group survives, they probably won combat (barring a bunch of crazy inv. saves like daemons or somesuch nonsense) and thus are forcing a fall back most likely. Assuming the player is somewhat competent, this is of more than average utility.
Also, you've now removed the reason I suggested a price increase. I think anywhere from 155-175 is reasonable.
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