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Post by Rolling Thunder on May 5, 2010 16:48:25 GMT -5
Okay Mel - just pick whichever one you like and use it. My main thing is - just give them righteous fury. A Priest is a Priest, and there really is no justification for a random mob of scavies to be getting BS or WS3.
A 6+ Inv is probably better than a 5+ armour simply because flak armour is basically tissue paper , but I'd think that just giving them no armour save and dropping their points would do,
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Post by Evil_Lamp_6 on May 6, 2010 1:49:42 GMT -5
I like the idea of getting a 6+ armor save. They wouldn't have access to flak armor like guard, but would possibly have a more ramshackle kind of armor, hence a 6+.
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Post by ElegaicRequiem on May 6, 2010 10:49:09 GMT -5
Perhaps they found the store that sells metal bikinis to the DE.
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Post by Melissia on May 6, 2010 11:01:34 GMT -5
lol, no. It's supposed to represent light body armor, or makeshift armor. Civilian stuff, like a basic flak vest which only covers the chest and belly but not the back, or perhaps heavy leathers with makeshift plates in them, like Ork armor.
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Post by Melissia on May 7, 2010 22:24:49 GMT -5
RT: The stats and rules for the priest are in the HQ section of the first page of this thread. "Faith of the Masses" is a special rule for the Faithful Citizens Mob unit, not for priests.
All Ecclesiarchal units effectively have Righteous Fury-- RF has been rolled into the "Ecclesiarchal Servant" rule.
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Post by Melissia on May 10, 2010 10:28:23 GMT -5
TroopsZealotsZealots are the more capable citizens, often gangers whipped in to a religious rage, retired veterans going for one last chance at glory, and Enforcers seeking greater glory. These zealous warriors of faith fight with nearly unrivaled zeal and frightening dedication. Though the faithful citizenry are the body of the Frateris Militia, the Zealots are its soul. [/b][/tr] [tr][td]Zealot[/td][td]4[/td][td]3[/td][td]3[/td][td]3[/td][td]1[/td][td]3[/td][td]2(3)[/td][td]10[/td][td]5+[/td][/tr] [tr][td]Militia Sergeant[/td][td]4[/td][td]3[/td][td]3[/td][td]3[/td][td]1[/td][td]3[/td][td]2(3)[/td][td]10[/td][td]5+[/td][/tr][/table] Type | Composition | Wargear | Special Rules | Transport Options |
[/b][/tr] [tr][td]Infantry[/td][td]1 Militia Sergeant 9-19 Zealots[/td][td]Laspistol Close Combat Weapons Flak Armor Frag Grenades[/td][td]Fearless Feel No Pain Furious Charge Rage[/td][td]Militia Armored Van[/td][/tr][/table][/center] - May add up to 10 more models at 9 points each
- Up to two Zealots exchange their weapons for:
- Eviscerator: 20 pts
- Flamer +5pts
- Militia Sergeant may replace their laspistol and/or close combat weapon with:
- Brazier of Holy Fire: +10 pts
- Power Weapon: +10 pts
- Eviscerator: +20 pts
- Militia Sergeant may instead be upgraded to a Priest for +10 points
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Post by Melissia on May 14, 2010 14:11:40 GMT -5
New fluff for the nightflame is being worked on. They're now instead extremely professional soldiers, as opposed to flamer-wielding psychopaths. Makes more sense for them to be infiltrating now. 0-1 Fast AttackSisters of the Nightflame [/b][/tr] [tr][td]Nightflame Veteran[/td][td]4[/td][td]4[/td][td]3[/td][td]3[/td][td]1[/td][td]4[/td][td]2(3)[/td][td]10[/td][td]3+[/td][/tr][/table] Type | Composition | Wargear | Special Rules | Transport Options |
[/b][/tr] [tr][td]Infantry[/td][td]5 Nightflame Veterans[/td][td]Power Armor Brazier of Holy Flame Bolt Pistol Frag Grenades[/td][td]Adepta Sororitas Fearless Infiltrate Nightflame Cult[/td][td]Repressor Dropship[/td][/tr][/table][/center] - Each individual Nightflame Veteran may be upgraded individually.
- May exchange Brazier of Holy Flame for:
- Flamer (+0 pts)
- Combiflamer and Sarissa (+5 Pts)
- Praesidium Protectiva (+15 pts)
- May exchange Bolt Pistol for:
- Power Weapon (+10 pts)
- Power Spear (+15 pts)
- Thunder Hammer (+25 pts)
- May exchange both for:
- Twin Hand Flamers (free)
- Neural Whips (+10 pts)
- Heavy Flamer (+10 pts)
Nightflame Cult: The Sisters of the Nightflame are not covered by the Book of Saints special rule, and is never effected by Divine Charisma-- always use Fearless instead. Furthermore, the Nightflame Cult is a small subfaction within the Sororitas, and has the following limitations: Normal games: 0-1 Planetstrike: 0-2 Apocalypse: No limit
Power Spear Available on Adepta Sororitas HQ units, Veteran Superiors, Sisters of the Nightflame, and as a special weapon for Blazing Sun Sisters.Two-handed power weapon which grants +1 to strength. When initiating an assault, this model may choose to forgo the extra attack normally granted in order to strike at initiative 10 (this does not override Hand of the Emperor). Updated Blazing Sun Sisters-- removed Eviscerators, added Power Spears as options instead. Added Power Spear as options to the following units: Adepta Soorritas Heroine, Angelis Imperial, Celestian Squad, Celestian Superior, Veteran Superior (Battle Sisters and Novitiates), Blazing Sun Superior.
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Post by Melissia on May 14, 2010 16:10:14 GMT -5
At a suggestion from a couple people over YIM, I'm reworking Zealots and moving Crusaders to be a bodyguard option for the High Priest(ess). Zealots now instead have Furious Charge rather than Fleet. Two members can have Eviscerators. Faithful Citizens may now purchase up to one heavy stubber weapons team per ten members in the squad Added in the Frateris Militia transport: [/b][/tr] [tr][td]Militia Armored Van[/td][td]3[/td][td]11[/td][td]10[/td][td]10[/td][/tr][/table] Type | Composition | Wargear | Special Rules |
[/b][/tr] [tr][td]Transport[/td][td]1 Militia Armored Van[/td][td]Searchlight[/td][td][/td][/tr][/table][/center] - Transport capacity of 12 models.
- May add in Makeshift Handholds for +20 points
- May add a Pintle Heavy Stubber for +10 points
- May not transport anything with power armor or terminator armor.
Makeshift Handholds Counts as open topped and gains a capacity of 20 models. Due to the danger of the handholds, when moving more than 6", roll D6. On a 1, one Citizen is wounded with no saves allowed.
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Post by Rolling Thunder on May 14, 2010 16:55:06 GMT -5
It's a truck. How is it fast? I've used trucks before, and they're not really 'Fast', and making it open-topped, carrying twenty of your very powerful Zealots....
...yeah. Balance issues are emerging all over this thing. The civilian mob are too good for a raging mob of loser civvies, the Zealots are...what are they exactly meant to represent? Fluffwise, they're too trained and skilled, and game-balance wise, they're better assault troops than Orks (and that's the fifty-man mob unit). Give them a fast open-topped transport capable of holding 20 men, Feel No Pain-ing super assault units and -
Sod it. I re-iterate my earlier point. You're making this army into Marines. It's got absolutely everything at the highest point of effectiveness, with each unit being quite nicely tuned to be exceptionally awesome. It's basically an entire army of psyker battle squads. If someone else has a toy, you've put it in here:
Massed assault infantry Massed Flamethrowers in Power Armour. Jump troops. Biker troops Special weapons troops. A bloody Valk clone. Seriously. Why? Why the frig is a Valk clone in here? Why does every sodding army have to steal my trick!? A heavy tank More stuff I neglect to recall. Elite assault troops. Some of the best basic infantry in the game.
I suppose this codex is pretty much the same thing you'd get if I wrote a new Guard codex. Then again, I suspect you'd be the first person to criticise that. But the point is, if you play this against any army unless it's a merciless powerlist, you will guarantee a win. Because it's just, at a meta-level, stupidly powerful, to the point that it makes Codex: Blood Angels and Codex: Space Wolves look positive enfeebled.
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Post by Melissia on May 14, 2010 16:58:06 GMT -5
It's not intended to have the Fast rule. I forgot to delete that when I copied the table function from the conflagrator.
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Post by Rolling Thunder on May 14, 2010 17:01:33 GMT -5
Ah, fair enough. Also, might want to drop the front armour to 10. I doubt it has as much armour as a rhino.
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Post by Melissia on May 14, 2010 17:28:16 GMT -5
As for Zealots, they are, as stated in the fluff quote, vicious gangers, retired guardsmen, penitent criminals, mercenaries, enforcers, etc. They are, basically, the best of the Frateris Militia.
You realize, hopefully, that the 50 member squad can be utterly devastated in close combat against any dedicated assault troop, right? In fact, if a squad of thirty Boyz gets the drop on that fifty man militia squad, they could just tear them apart. If they are upgraded to WS3, then they also have fearless.
Ork Slugga Boyz have four attacks per model., at WS4 and S4. That means if the Orks get to charge-- and any Ork player worth his salt will make sure this happens-- the Orks have more attacks than the fifty models, they hit harder (S4), and they hit more often (WS4), and when they are hit they can take the hit better (T4). And so they'd win combat resolution. Causing even MORE wounds because of the fearless USR being there. And the Stubborn squad has even fewer attacks and they're all at WS2. Oh, and did I mention the Ork unit is cheaper? By 35 points in fact. And Sluggaz ignore 6+ save and are higher strength, while laspistols are AP-, so it's not like the BS2 assault-oriented citizen squad is gonna make it up with shooting, the Orks could put more of a hurt on them in shooting than they could on the Orks.
Zealots aren't in that much better of a position. Orks can do the same thing, roughly speaking, with 'ard boyz-- which again would have more attacks and higher toughness than Zealots, but the Zealots could have either flamers or eviscerators. And one good turn of shooting from a Lootaboyz squad can wipe that semi-expensive zealots squad off the board, because they'd cause instant death with each hit and thus ignore both the armor and the FNP.
For that matter, even the 50-member shooty version of the squad, with the heavy stubbers, is only 35 points cheaper than a fifty member Guardsman squad with heavy bolters (Five squads with one heavy bolter each, combined into one). Except the heavy bolters are better in almost every way than heavy stubbers, and Guardsmen can benefit from Orders, causing them to have even more offensive power. And with a Commissar they're better than stubborn.
So that means the 50 model squad is a speed bump which might be able to threaten units if it manages to get the charge. For 215 points, one would hope it can do SOMETHING.
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Post by ElegaicRequiem on May 14, 2010 18:00:54 GMT -5
Massed assault infantry Massed Flamethrowers in Power Armour. Jump troops. Biker troops Special weapons troops. A bloody Valk clone. Seriously. Why? Why the frig is a Valk clone in here? Why does every sodding army have to steal my trick!? A heavy tank More stuff I neglect to recall. Elite assault troops. Some of the best basic infantry in the game. Almost all of that is stuff that the AS should have in abundance. As for the valk clone, you can expect every army to get something like it now that the IG have it. People love it, both as a fluff thing, and actually buying the model, so GW's going to beat that horse until it's dead.
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Post by RedsandRoyals on May 14, 2010 18:13:45 GMT -5
Massed assault infantry Massed Flamethrowers in Power Armour. Jump troops. Biker troops Special weapons troops. A bloody Valk clone. Seriously. Why? Why the frig is a Valk clone in here? Why does every sodding army have to steal my trick!? A heavy tank More stuff I neglect to recall. Elite assault troops. Some of the best basic infantry in the game. If I may? In regards to the Massed flamethrower infantry, are you referring to the 0-1 unit of Nightflame that can't be taken if you have any other cults? In fact, most of this stuff isn't s good and/or flexible as it's equivalents in other codices, and some of the stuff you can't even take with each other. All in all, the units here mostly keep with the theme of the Sisters. Not quite as good as dedicated SM or IG forces in their area of expertise. They use equipment that is standard issue to other imperial forces, but adapt it to their needs, so they aren't quite as flexible as IG or SM can be. There are two fundamental differences to this Codex, compared to the ones we see on the shelves now. The first is it tries to let you do whatever you want to represent the army, and capture the breadth of the forces of the Imperial Cult. Older codices did this mostly by giving you traits or doctrines, but Mel has done it by giving lots of different units to choose from. This is to help people better build theme armies. Is it a good idea? Up to you to decide for yourself. The second difference is that it is centered around a a piece of fluff that is not GW sanctioned. Mel wrote about what was essentially a reformation of the Sisters and Imperial Cult, which makes them much more in line as a standard combat force, capable of crusading on their own without support. Keep in mind the actual purpose and background of the Codex, and it'll make sense. Finally, remember that this is an army that is essentially a middle ground between two existing codices. The Sisters are a bit tougher and harder then the IG, but can't match them tank for tank. They're more numerous then SM, but not quite as tough. There will be a lot of cross over with IG and SM codices, but it will still have it's own distinct feel, moreso then the variant SM codices. Oh, and how is the Valk your idea? People were playing dedicated Air Cav with model airplanes using leaked PDFs before the codex was actually released. Technically, it's their idea if it's anyone's. Reds
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Post by ElegaicRequiem on May 14, 2010 20:20:56 GMT -5
And it was in IA before that, wasn't it?
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Post by Melissia on May 14, 2010 20:21:32 GMT -5
Proposed Cities of Death Strategems A list of proposed faction-specific CoD strategems: Key Buildings Strategem: Propoganda Vox-Tower All friendly units within 24" re-roll failed leadership tests. Friendly units in this range may regroup even if under half-strength. Dirty Tricks Strategem: Suppressive Fire All types of bolter weaponry (bolt pistols, bolters, storm bolters, heavy bolters, boltcannons) in the army gain Pinning. Pinning tests made because of these weapons suffer from -1 to leadership. Armoury Strategem: Praise the Emperor and Pass the Ammo Once per turn, one unit with bolter weaponry (bolt pistols, bolters, storm bolters, heavy bolters, boltcannons) may re-roll failed to-hit rolls. Obstacles Strategem: Barricades of Terra Replaces Barricades. Grants 4+ cover save. Counts as dangerous terrain for infantry crossing it. Only provides cover on one side. Counts as difficult terrain for vehicles other than Skimmers, but is removed if crossed by a non-skimmer vehicle. (Represented by Aegis Defense Lines with spikes) Deployment Strategem: Accurate Drops Adepta Sororitas Dropships count as having Internal Guidance (see C:SM) when deploying by Deep Strike.
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Post by Jackal-0311 on May 14, 2010 21:25:52 GMT -5
Can you explain this? The part about providing cover in one direction.
Obstacles Strategem: Barricades of Terra Replaces Barricades.
Grants 4+ cover save. Counts as dangerous terrain for infantry crossing it. Only provides cover on one side. Counts as difficult terrain for vehicles other than Skimmers, but is removed if crossed by a non-skimmer vehicle. (Represented by Aegis Defense Lines with spikes)
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Post by Melissia on May 14, 2010 21:29:24 GMT -5
Normally, all that matters for cover is that true line of sight is obscured (IE, the model is covered by the terrain from the point of view of the firer by at least a certain percent). But the Barricades of Terra are designed to give great firing lanes to those on the right side of the barricades, while leaving those outside open for fire.
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Post by Rolling Thunder on May 15, 2010 6:37:19 GMT -5
Ganger, retired Guardsmen, mercenaries - would be WS3. Not WS4. WS4 represents someone who is exceptionally good at close combat, not a guy who's survived a couple of close-in fights with other humans. And where does Feel No Pain come from? They're humans, and I see no medical kit in there.
Firstly, comparisons with Orks are fallacious. Orks are meant to be insanely-good close combat troops attacking en masse. The Frateris militia, however, are a bunch of loser fanatics dredged up to put bodies between a nearby enemy and a shrine. Fanaticism does not suggest professionalism at the best times, unless backed with extremely good training, which loser militia rarely get.
On to the Zealots: - Screen the truck behind a rhino, pop it out afterwards, send it toward the enemy lines, disembark, charge. I personally doubt there are many enemies that are going to survive that many S4 I4 attacks. Expensive, maybe, but add in the laspistol volley and the flamer shots, and you're going to decimate any kind of squad without many casualties in return.
@reds: And I was writing Air-Cav fluff from 2007. It's my trick. Other people may have the trick, other people may have figured it out first, but this is my trick, my army, and my passion. And I despise it being handed out like candy to every other bunch of armies while GW still raises prices.
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Post by Melissia on May 15, 2010 9:17:58 GMT -5
Well then stop comparing the two, DUH. You're the one that did it, and I just proved you're wrong. Have FUN with that.
If you think dropships are aircav, then you don't know what aircav is so obviously aircav isn't yours.
ALL dropship are intended to do-- and, indeed, all that they accomplish-- is getting sisters from point A, in orbit above a planet, to point B, the battlefield. They're very expensive for what you get, and they have lighter weaponry than a razorback or immolator. They're basically just flying rhinos built for orbital insertion, and nothing more.
Now compare that to a Valkyrie or Vendetta. The valk has hellstrike missiles, a multilaser, can have a lascannon and heavy bolter sponsons. And the Vendetta has three TL lascannons, making it one of the most deadly mobile anti-tank weapons in 40k. And furthermore, they have Scouts, AND Grav Chute Insertion, whereas the Dropship has to land to deploy its Sisters. And the Valkyrie costs only fifteen more points. The dropship is, quite frankly, UNDERPOWERED, and it's certainly not air cav.
It is a dropship A classic sci-fi concept. There was one in Quake 4, and another one in Starship Troopers, and plenty more besides that I'm too lazy to mention. The Dropship cannot provide the fire support that the Valkyrie/Vendetta can, it doesn't have the mobility that the Valkyrie/Vendetta has, and it doesn't have the troop deployment options the Valkyrie/Vendetta does. The only thing really special that the dropship can do is deep strike troops. Both Guard and Marines can do the same thing, only more efficiently.
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Post by Rolling Thunder on May 15, 2010 10:21:09 GMT -5
Well then stop comparing the two, DUH. You're the one that did it, and I just proved you're wrong. Have FUN with that. If you think dropships are aircav, then you don't know what aircav is so obviously aircav isn't yours. ALL dropship are intended to do-- and, indeed, all that they accomplish-- is getting sisters from point A, in orbit above a planet, to point B, the battlefield. They're very expensive for what you get, and they have lighter weaponry than a razorback or immolator. They're basically just flying rhinos built for orbital insertion, and nothing more. Now compare that to a Valkyrie or Vendetta. The valk has hellstrike missiles, a multilaser, can have a lascannon and heavy bolter sponsons. And the Vendetta has three TL lascannons, making it one of the most deadly mobile anti-tank weapons in 40k. And furthermore, they have Scouts, AND Grav Chute Insertion, whereas the Dropship has to land to deploy its Sisters. And the Valkyrie costs only fifteen more points. The dropship is, quite frankly, UNDERPOWERED, and it's certainly not air cav. It is a dropship A classic sci-fi concept. There was one in Quake 4, and another one in Starship Troopers, and plenty more besides that I'm too lazy to mention. The Dropship cannot provide the fire support that the Valkyrie/Vendetta can, it doesn't have the mobility that the Valkyrie/Vendetta has, and it doesn't have the troop deployment options the Valkyrie/Vendetta does. The only thing really special that the dropship can do is deep strike troops. Both Guard and Marines can do the same thing, only more efficiently. One of my points down, four more to go.
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Post by Melissia on May 15, 2010 10:42:24 GMT -5
I would, but you've always tossed up random objections like the boy crying wolf, ninety percent of which have been illegitimate and frankly bordering on spam and certainly crossing the border of reason and logic. If I get bored later today, I might bother to respond to them, but I'm rather tired of it at the moment (and kinda just plain tired, as well), so I'm going to play some DoW2 instead.
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Post by Rolling Thunder on May 15, 2010 15:12:45 GMT -5
I would, but you've always tossed up random objections like the boy crying wolf, ninety percent of which have been illegitimate and frankly bordering on spam and certainly crossing the border of reason and logic. If I get bored later today, I might bother to respond to them, but I'm rather tired of it at the moment (and kinda just plain tired, as well), so I'm going to play some DoW2 instead. *Slow Clap*
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Post by ElegaicRequiem on May 15, 2010 16:17:23 GMT -5
RT, I should think you're well enough versed in the game, and that you have the wit to answer all these complaints yourself, were you to carefully go over the fandex, and assess it from the other side.
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Post by Rolling Thunder on May 15, 2010 17:31:01 GMT -5
Req, that's my point. I have done. Why do you think I am making these points, because I enjoy needling Mel? (Well, a little, but I've better things to do). Bringing Sisters up to parity was a perfectly good thing to do, and I respect and like most of the 'Dex. I'm making these points because I can see serious balance issues with the codex, not because it provides me with some kind of amusement.
And if you want to know why I'm sometimes irascible here? Guess.
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