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Post by Empirespy on May 18, 2011 16:16:04 GMT -5
I have a load of old white dwarfs and it's really sad when I look at the mail order form at the back with all these really cheap prices, I want to just send that issue with a big list and say 'it's advertised here as being X amount I want it fr that price.' To give you some idea of how cheap here is an example; Deathwing terminators (box of five) £12.99 they are now £8.99 EACH!
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Post by Trickstick on May 18, 2011 18:35:11 GMT -5
If the stores aren't able to make back their running costs, maybe they should consider figuring out why and if they can reverse it, instead of increasing prices and opening a new Battle Bunker in Maryland. If your lifeboat is sinking, try plugging the leak instead of throwing all your food overboard to save weight, that's all I'm saying. Reds From what I understand, the stores do not run at a loss. That is one of the reasons that they axed a lot of stores and staff, to make the stores profitable. GW retail is a seperate section of the company and has to try to make money. They seem to do have been trying to do this by cutting back on staff and premises. I don't believe that the retail arm has any say over the prices of products. Then you have all of the factors that can cause GW to raise prices. Raw materials, equipment, rent, tax, wages, space otter attack. These costs never really go down. It is inflation at work on a luxury good during a period of economic brown trouser time. I'm not saying that GW is making the right choices, just that the choices they are making are understandable.
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Post by ElegaicRequiem on May 18, 2011 18:50:14 GMT -5
I knew we should have kept funding the orbiting lasers plan. They'd have come in handy during the last space otter attack.
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Post by RedsandRoyals on May 18, 2011 19:27:42 GMT -5
I think the motive is understandable. The action, not so much. The key part of this hobby is that people have to be able to afford to play it, and it has to be at a price where people will want to play it. There's a point where the potential profit lost by people unable to afford entry and people driven out of the hobby by spiraling costs will outweigh profit gained by raising prices. If material costs are so drastic, why do we not see price hikes from companies who use the same materials as often as we see them from GW? My point is they can probably cut fat in other areas instead of just letting the consumer take it in the shorts.
I probably shouldn't get worked up about this, since my armies are, for all intensive purposes, done (save for loooots of painting, but I use Vallejo paints anyway), but something about it irks me. I don't like being forced out of a hobby I enjoy because the manufacturer made it unaffordable for me to play due to shortsighted business practices (past and present).
Reds
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Post by Inquisitor Lord Graenis on May 18, 2011 20:40:33 GMT -5
...though I shudder at the thought of supporting that smug bastard Mat Ward. don't think of it as supporting Matt Ward, think of it as supporting me!
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Post by syphon on May 19, 2011 11:52:31 GMT -5
Well, you are an unknown quantity. Then again, that might mean you are a smug prick. Then again then again, you aren't an unconfirmed smug bastard. So Defiance is yours? Or you are a part of it?
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Post by cheminhaler on May 19, 2011 14:52:46 GMT -5
I can never figure out why NASA, or the government of Fiji isn't handling the space otter problem. Why leave it to a plastic miniature gayming company?
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Post by Inquisitor Lord Graenis on May 19, 2011 17:32:26 GMT -5
I'm not an unknown quantity, I've been here for ages back when Aeon was a regular .
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Post by Inquisitor Lord Graenis on May 19, 2011 17:35:05 GMT -5
the current Finecast poster alludes to an interesting thing, every race is represented but 4, and there are only 3 blank spaces. the four are:
Necrons Bretonians Ogres Sisters.
2 of the spaces fall in the WFB section, with one in the 40k one.
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Post by treadiculous on May 20, 2011 3:13:48 GMT -5
don't forget its 'annual price rise' this month, add to that finecast will be costing a 'little' more than the metal stuff we can all celebrate GW's ever increasing financial burden...
I got round this problem by making my own codex for my skint mate, its for a sci-fi skaven race (who I call Rut-Kin.. not hrud) and it allows a 1500 point army to be built out of one battleforce box! ( and a bunch of spare lasgun...)
Its such a shame its like this with GW.. I remember a shop which used to have a bucket where you could dig out 3 models for 50 pence.. great for hordes of goblins etc
..and okay, so a game for a PC can be £40 when new, and thats just a disk, but c'mon.. several friends won't collect an army purely on cost basis!.. proof its getting out of hand!
..and what bites, is you look at shadowforge or cobblestone castings or any of the many many other model manufacturers and its clear they can make the same stuff at a much lower price!
Who's up for setting up the IGMB casting company!...?
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Post by Inquisitor Lord Graenis on May 20, 2011 3:42:48 GMT -5
there was someone who was creating stuff for TrollsForge, try looking him up
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Post by Rolling Thunder on May 20, 2011 7:05:58 GMT -5
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Post by syphon on May 20, 2011 7:35:22 GMT -5
I know, RT. And that's why I'm not buying the downloadable content for Call of Duty either. But anyway, the thing is that it won't matter. There will be enough idiots that still will buy.
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Post by Trooper One-Nine-Seven-Four on May 21, 2011 12:49:07 GMT -5
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Post by ElegaicRequiem on May 21, 2011 16:41:52 GMT -5
No, GW, we got those underlying reasons as to why you did what you did. Our point is that you misunderstand what to do with yourselves. This: "While this may seem great in the short term, the simple fact is that European internet traders will not invest any money in growing the hobby in your country. Their model is to minimise their costs and free-ride on the investment of Games Workshop and local independent shops in creating a customer base." ...is wrong, becuase getting your products in an area cheaply is going to be a huge investment on the part of your customer base. If someone can get X for cheaper, they'll want to get it that way. If someone can't afford X, they won't get it. (X = an obvious 'want,' rather than a 'need.') "While some customers have suggested we halve our prices, the only way we could do that is if we halve our Australian staff's salaries, default on our rents and not pay our suppliers until exchange rates move back into alignment. That's the reality of what a price reduction of this scale means. And we both know that customers who are motivated by price are not going to change their behaviour if it was any less than that." What nimrod would want you to halve your prices in a single step? That's a road to destruction for any service industry. A reasonable course of action (for the kinda-good-idea price cut) would be to offer the occasional sale, perhaps holiday discounts of 20% with free shipping. I suggest such a large amount only because without at least that much, people will still go to alternative sources. Going to you comment on behavior, think about this: you're doing essentially an analogue of what the music industry did when people first started using the internet to sell music at a cheaper price. We all know how much they screwed themselves until they finally adapted to the new 'way things work.' And even with a song costing less than a dollar these days, piracy is still a problem. People will almost always get X for free if they can. Most people wouldn't walk into a store and shoplift, but just about everyone has little problem with a bit of IP piracy. What are you going to do when people start making their own miniatures? Resin is cheap. We have the internet. People will at least have acquaintances who will sell molds for a smaller fee than a 1K army of GW products, even if the individual himself can't sculpt. And you know what? Some people will just recast your sprues. "...the loss of volume would leave Games Workshop no choice but to scale back our investment in new product development, further eroding our customer base. Not something that we or our customers would want us to do." Eroding customer base is a concern of yours? Your business model seems to be built upon the 'disposable customer' theory of getting a few hundred dollars from someone, then telling him he either has to spend more or go home. And no, we don't much care for it. We're here for the fluff and the modeling - the former is systematically being rewritten to be less like itself (for lack of a better way of putting it), and the latter we can get cheaper just about everywhere else. Our loyalty to you as a company is not based on some oath of fidelity - it extends as far as we're willing to tolerate the expense. And as a corollary to that, there are people who wish you would dissolve, giving other companies a chance to pick up the IP. "I hope therefore that over time you will see the benefits of this decision for you and your hobby." Yes: more money to spend on other things. Doing whatever to ensure you don't take a loss overseas is all well and good. Don't couple it with crazy price hikes, too. But you keep doing what you're doing. I'm just a customer.
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Post by Laughing Man on May 21, 2011 17:34:31 GMT -5
TL:DR of the GW statement
Screw you all. *Teabags Australian gamers*
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Post by Trooper One-Nine-Seven-Four on May 21, 2011 17:35:31 GMT -5
No, GW, we got those underlying reasons as to why you did what you did. Our point is that you misunderstand what to do with yourselves. This: "While this may seem great in the short term, the simple fact is that European internet traders will not invest any money in growing the hobby in your country. Their model is to minimise their costs and free-ride on the investment of Games Workshop and local independent shops in creating a customer base." ...is wrong, becuase getting your products in an area cheaply is going to be a huge investment on the part of your customer base. If someone can get X for cheaper, they'll want to get it that way. If someone can't afford X, they won't get it. (X = an obvious 'want,' rather than a 'need.') "While some customers have suggested we halve our prices, the only way we could do that is if we halve our Australian staff's salaries, default on our rents and not pay our suppliers until exchange rates move back into alignment. That's the reality of what a price reduction of this scale means. And we both know that customers who are motivated by price are not going to change their behaviour if it was any less than that." What nimrod would want you to halve your prices in a single step? That's a road to destruction for any service industry. A reasonable course of action (for the kinda-good-idea price cut) would be to offer the occasional sale, perhaps holiday discounts of 20% with free shipping. I suggest such a large amount only because without at least that much, people will still go to alternative sources. Going to you comment on behavior, think about this: you're doing essentially an analogue of what the music industry did when people first started using the internet to sell music at a cheaper price. We all know how much they screwed themselves until they finally adapted to the new 'way things work.' And even with a song costing less than a dollar these days, piracy is still a problem. People will almost always get X for free if they can. Most people wouldn't walk into a store and shoplift, but just about everyone has little problem with a bit of IP piracy. What are you going to do when people start making their own miniatures? Resin is cheap. We have the internet. People will at least have acquaintances who will sell molds for a smaller fee than a 1K army of GW products, even if the individual himself can't sculpt. And you know what? Some people will just recast your sprues. "...the loss of volume would leave Games Workshop no choice but to scale back our investment in new product development, further eroding our customer base. Not something that we or our customers would want us to do." Eroding customer base is a concern of yours? Your business model seems to be built upon the 'disposable customer' theory of getting a few hundred dollars from someone, then telling him he either has to spend more or go home. And no, we don't much care for it. We're here for the fluff and the modeling - the former is systematically being rewritten to be less like itself (for lack of a better way of putting it), and the latter we can get cheaper just about everywhere else. Our loyalty to you as a company is not based on some oath of fidelity - it extends as far as we're willing to tolerate the expense. And as a corollary to that, there are people who wish you would dissolve, giving other companies a chance to pick up the IP. "I hope therefore that over time you will see the benefits of this decision for you and your hobby." Yes: more money to spend on other things. Doing whatever to ensure you don't take a loss overseas is all well and good. Don't couple it with crazy price hikes, too. But you keep doing what you're doing. I'm just a customer. Right on, Requiem. I rolled my eyes multiple times while reading Mr. Wells' "justification" for GW's recent actions. I hate to say it, but I hope it comes back and bites GW in the ass...
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Post by F.K.M on May 21, 2011 23:56:17 GMT -5
Anybody know of any other game systems from other game developers that i could actually find at a local game store. Supposedly the closest game store to play warmachine was over an hour away. That's just unacceptable. However it's also unacceptable to see GW having free run of the tabletop gaming industry. Can't believe how nerdy i sound saying that. Then again this is a forum of nerds so it's cool here.
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Post by Empirespy on May 22, 2011 15:49:40 GMT -5
Are you calling me A nerd!?! *pushes circular rimmed glasses closer and straightens bow tie* Call me a Nerd and I'll go Klingon on your ass...
On a serious note I agree with you flamingkillamajig.
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Post by vegna on May 22, 2011 17:48:48 GMT -5
games workshop logic: not enough profit -> increase prices increased prices -> less people starting/more people leaving hobby less people buying models -> not enough profit not enough profit -> increase price
Yes they do need to make profit but their current method will put them out of buisness. the fact when the economy collapsed they still upped the price indicates they are idiots. people have less expendable income, what shall we do? make it so they cant afford to buy our product after 6 months saving!
Note I am doing something about it, now i only buy my models off Ebay and dark sphere, i know dark buy from GWS but clearly they don't pay the same as us, shafting GWS more.
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Post by Adam Selene on May 22, 2011 21:02:31 GMT -5
the current Finecast poster alludes to an interesting thing, every race is represented but 4, and there are only 3 blank spaces. the four are: Necrons Bretonians Ogres Sisters. 2 of the spaces fall in the WFB section, with one in the 40k one. WHAT! I'm certain that Sisters (as their making a Necron codex it is logical that Necrons will stay) would be more profitable than Ogres, simply because GW has just published the new fantasy rule book that makes massive units of Infantry a must. Ogres are smaller units of monsters, as you can buy 6 Ogres for the price of 10 or 20 infantry (and you need 30+ infantry for a singal regiment) this means Ogres will be one of the less profitable armies (to say little about the fact they don't have many fans compared with the old favorites), I think Sisters would make more money for GW, this makes zero logic.
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Post by Trickstick on May 22, 2011 21:18:51 GMT -5
I'm pretty sure that those races were left out because they are all going to be released at some point this year. There would be no point in releasing finecast miniatures of a model that was being replaced.
I wouldn't read too much into the blank spaces. It is possible to analyse things too much. Or maybe the Tyranids are getting hungry again...
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Post by F.K.M on May 22, 2011 22:40:26 GMT -5
Adam Selene: That's not entirely true. 8th edition made a lot of fixes with ogres. All monstrous infantry like ogres get stomp attacks (1 attack at the end of a combat and it hits instantly) and ogres are at strength 5 base. Not to mention they made ranks of 3 monstrous infantry a rank and ranks of 6 a horde. If this wasn't enough they even allow supporting ranks of monstrous infantry and possibly other monstrous units have 3 supporting attacks. This gives ogres a huge boost. The sucky thing about ogres is most of their spells are weak buffs that are 'remains in play'. This means you can dispel them in subsequent turns. One of their only really useful spells adds +1 to toughness making their base units toughness 5. There magic miscast chart is extremely forgiving though. So basically ogres could use a new army book and boosts even if they're mostly buff spells. They could get in on all the large creature goodness of recent history and they could use different units that bring something new to the table. Too bad the beastmen codex came out recently and sucked though. They could use better stuff. 3 ranks of 6 minotaurs per rank is disgusting though (doombull leader in it). However there's not as much good stuff in the army. The army could use more flanking like i heard its previous army book had.
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Post by Adam Selene on May 22, 2011 23:56:30 GMT -5
Adam Selene: That's not entirely true. 8th edition made a lot of fixes with ogres. All monstrous infantry like ogres get stomp attacks (1 attack at the end of a combat and it hits instantly) and ogres are at strength 5 base. Not to mention they made ranks of 3 monstrous infantry a rank and ranks of 6 a horde. If this wasn't enough they even allow supporting ranks of monstrous infantry and possibly other monstrous units have 3 supporting attacks. This gives ogres a huge boost. The sucky thing about ogres is most of their spells are weak buffs that are 'remains in play'. This means you can dispel them in subsequent turns. One of their only really useful spells adds +1 to toughness making their base units toughness 5. There magic miscast chart is extremely forgiving though. So basically ogres could use a new army book and boosts even if they're mostly buff spells. They could get in on all the large creature goodness of recent history and they could use different units that bring something new to the table. Too bad the beastmen codex came out recently and sucked though. They could use better stuff. 3 ranks of 6 minotaurs per rank is disgusting though (doombull leader in it). However there's not as much good stuff in the army. The army could use more flanking like i heard its previous army book had. Yes Ogres are better at fighting now, that wasn't my point; the point was I personally think that a fantasy gamer will be buying a lot more infantry models because big units are a must now. So compare a Ogre player and a Empire/Orcs/Elves/Scaven player and the Ogre player will generally spend less cash on models. Compare a Ogre play with a Sisters player and the Ogre player will generally spend less cash on models. I say generally because I have seen Ogre players with hundreds of gnoblars. Thought trickster is probably right. *Prays to the Emperor that Sisters aren't going in the "Eaten by Tyranids" category*
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Post by F.K.M on May 23, 2011 5:02:49 GMT -5
Adam Selene: They'd probably be more disbanded by the inquisition for some stupid reason. Death against the tyranids is a stupid way to go. They're spread out on a lot of planets. Then again the squats went but they were in a section of space. It'd honestly make more sense to see the tau go but they have some fans. I mean they don't fit with the theme of the universe currently and they're stuck in the middle of fornicateing nowhere. All they need is a similar event to macragge on their empire and they're pretty much gone. I don't know about ogres. Tomb kings weren't incredibly popular either. Personally all GW has to do is raise prices of ogres if they re-release them. Hell they could just raise prices. It's not like rat ogres and minotaurs are cheap. Rat ogres are 40 dollars for a box of 2 with like 6 giant rats. It's so overpriced you may as well buy it in a battleforce or more likely split an island of blood with somebody for only 50 dollars and get nearly a whole freaking army plus 2 rat ogres for nearly the same price. The only thing is you don't get giant rats. Minotaurs however are really expensive. So basically i think ogres need a re-release but bretonnia probably needs it more. It'll be months before both armies get re-released though. Personally i wouldn't mind seeing a new race/faction at some point for either game system. If 40k chooses to take a race from fantasy they have lizardmen and skaven and they could always add in exodite eldar (wood elves in space).
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