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Post by cheminhaler on Apr 12, 2011 15:07:08 GMT -5
Good ideas all round. If it's a skirmish game then large squads should be avoided, but platoons of conscripts or infantry can be broken down into squads anyway, so it shouldn't be a problem.
Admittedly if you have to fall back every time someone shoots an autocannon or flamer at you, then expect to see a lot of squads falling back all the time. In fact most of the game could consist of running backwards or forwards, whilst being shot.
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Post by Rolling Thunder on Apr 12, 2011 18:56:23 GMT -5
Good ideas all round. If it's a skirmish game then large squads should be avoided, but platoons of conscripts or infantry can be broken down into squads anyway, so it shouldn't be a problem. Admittedly if you have to fall back every time someone shoots an autocannon or flamer at you, then expect to see a lot of squads falling back all the time. In fact most of the game could consist of running backwards or forwards, whilst being shot. Sorry, I mean just force a morale check. And if you're standing in the open when an autocannon opens up on you, well... Goodbye.
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Post by cheminhaler on Apr 14, 2011 7:48:15 GMT -5
Another question : if shooting is a vitally important part of the game, can we assume that close combat troop specialists (like genestealers and hormagaunts - anything that is armed with claws/ basic cc weapons) will be cheaper in points to offset the disadvantages of lack of ranged weapons? This way a horde of 'nids could truly be a horde..
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Post by Rolling Thunder on Apr 14, 2011 14:33:07 GMT -5
Had some idea for Leader Abilities that I've written down and will implement in the general human codex/army list/etc.
So, the summary of our Leadership changes comes down to:
Charge Reactions Implemented
When a unit is charged, it must immediately take a Ld Test.
If it passes, it may: Open Fire!: The unit gets a free shooting attack against the enemy unit that is assaulting them. Counter-attack: The unit charges the enemy unit (and so gains the +1 attack for charging). Withdraw: The unit immediately makes an ordered withdrawal* from the enemy unit.
If the test is failed, the unit must either:
Hold: Remain stationary and do nothing. Flee: Make a disorderly withdrawal**
Changes to the general morale system Each casualty suffered by a unit will cause it to be at -1Ld until the start of it's next combat turn. Morale Tests will occur when a unit suffers from it's strength that turn:
20% casualties [Morale check]: Make a morale check. If fail, the unit is suppressed [only from shooting casualties] or must make an orderly withdrawal* [shooting or meleƩ]. Some weapons will force this test without needing to inflict casualties.
40% casualties [Morale shock]: Make a morale check. If the unit fails, the unit becomes pinned [shooting only] or must make a disorderly** fall back [shooting or meleƩ]. A few weapons will be terrifying enough to inflict this morale shock without needing to inflict 40% casualties.
The Term Morale Tests will be used to denominate situations where a rule applies to both types of test.
*This will be the term for falling back, but if you are caught you are not wiped out. **This will be the term for a fall back move, and if caught you are wiped out.
Being in communication
Leader models have a 12" area of influence, under which any model under their command may use their leadership. Any unit which is In Communication with that unit (using vox-casters) may also use the Leader's Leadership.
[Human] Leader abilities:
Up and At 'Lads! (requires Ld Test): All friendly units within 12" and under the command of the Leader using this ability ignore the effects of suppression and pinning for that turn.
Fire Control (requires Ld Test): All friendly models In Communication with and under the command of the Leader using this ability will not be subject to Target Priority tests* if the Leader can draw Line of Sight to their chosen target.
Demagogue (Passive ability): All friendly units within the Leader's AOI become stubborn. However, if the Leader is slain, all those units must take an Morale Check.
Command Squad/Leader Equipment:
Vox-Hailer gear: Extends the models' Area of Influence out to 24". Standard: All friendly units within 24" and able to draw LoS to the standard may re-roll unsuccessful Morale Tests.
Target Priority: Any unit wishing to target an enemy unit that is not the closest to them must first pass a successful Leadership Test. If the test is failed, then the unit will make a shooting attack on the enemy, and then the initiative will immediately pass to the opposing player.
*Do we still have Target Priority in 5th Ed? If not, we're bringing it back.
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Post by Gabriel Lupus on Apr 14, 2011 14:59:32 GMT -5
We don't have it anymore - but I think it makes sense to bring it back. Just seems logical that rank and file would be more concerned with closer targets (unless ordered otherwise). May be have something that allows snipers etc to ignore target priority though - allowing them to concentrate on the targets they should be going for.
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Post by Rolling Thunder on Apr 14, 2011 15:08:32 GMT -5
Snipers will ignore Target Priority. Heavy weapons teams and so on will not (thus making a good, competent officer an extremely useful thing to have around - both to make sure your Lascannon gunner hits the large enemy half track rather than scything down four-five angry squaddies nearby, and to make sure that that failed Leadership Test doesn't bring your entire battle plan to a grinding halt and allow the enemy to seize the initiative).
Update: Edited Fire Control/Victor Target to allow a more broad-reaching fire support role for Leaders.
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Post by Shostak(AWOL) on Apr 15, 2011 9:50:21 GMT -5
Ranged weapons in CC makes a lot of sense, especially with troops not skilled in hand to hand combat. However, perhaps some sort of bonus to dedicated CC troops, (such as genestealers), or allowing some sort of save for troops with a high initiative would be useful. It makes sense that skilled and/or fast troops could avoid being shot.
I think in a way heavy weapons should be able to choose what they target, it makes sense that the lascannon trooper will keep his cool and target the tank. This may be over complicating it, but maybe if there were severa; squads groued together then targeting would be easier, (as they trust others to take the enemy).
How are you going to go about vehicle design? May I suggest a basic AV 10 all round chassis for x points, then buy more armour, weapons mounts, abilities such as fast, transporty capacity etc for more points.
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Post by Rolling Thunder on Apr 16, 2011 6:04:06 GMT -5
] I think in a way heavy weapons should be able to choose what they target, it makes sense that the lascannon trooper will keep his cool and target the tank. Which is why you have to take the Ld Test for Target priority - to make sure the gunner keeps his cool. Human armies are being deliberately kept reliant on their Command and Control structures to mitigate some of the sheer firepower a human list can throw out. , or allowing some sort of save for troops with a high initiative would be useful. It makes sense that skilled and/or fast troops could avoid being shot. From ranged attacks? No. You can't dodge bullets, let alone high-velocity shells. In close-combat? Certainly. Units with very acrobatic combat abilities will have dodge saves - Death Cult Assassins, Wyches....uh... I'm sure we'll think of that when we come to it. Certainly not Genestealers (Which are neither particularly fast or agile, and certainly not acrobatic). So, Shostak, is there anything in Tempest you're particularly interested in?
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Post by Rolling Thunder on Apr 17, 2011 8:48:22 GMT -5
Update to the Assault Rules in Lieu of the changes to the Initiative system [And some potential clarifications]:
Units making an orderly withdrawal that are caught by their foes do not suffer casualties, but the combat continues.
Units making a disorderly withdrawal that are caught by their foes are routed.
Assaults will be fought at the end of every combat turn [regardless of whatever happened]. Units locked in assault count as being automatically active for the purposes of their close-quarters struggle to the death.
"The Rush of the Kill"/"Cold Steel and Courage"/"Gathering momentum"/"Shock Tactics": Any unit which wins in an assault (either by driving off or wiping out it's opponents) automatically activates.
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Post by Rolling Thunder on Apr 21, 2011 19:20:40 GMT -5
Problem! Formulating a flow sheet for Tempest is proving to be an utter nightmare. Could anyone else please have a crack at it? Edit: Decided that declaring a charge should be a bit more specific: Unit declares a charge. Opponent takes charge reaction test Pass - Counter-Attack, [Friendly unit and enemy unit both move their Move+Run values towards each other]
- Open Fire [Initiates Counter Fire on the assaulting unit. Assuming the enemy unit survives the fire and is not wiped out or does not fail a morale test, it then moves it's Move+Run value towards the enemy]
- Orderly Withdrawal [Friendly unit falls back their Move+Run value. If caught (as the enemy will pursue), they fight as normal in close combat).]
- Hold. [Enemy moves Move+Run value into base to base with the friendly unit].
Fail Hold [ Disorderly Withdrawal [Opposing unit falls back Move+Run. If caught, the unit is wiped out].Also, fall back will be Move+Run, rather than 2D6.
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Post by Rolling Thunder on May 29, 2011 19:13:16 GMT -5
Well, I've been doing a lot of editing, chopping and changing, and I have some problems that I'd like you august gentlemen's help with:
1. Lieutenants/Officers: I've established that they'll allow units to re-roll failed activations. Should they also provide a leadership buff?
2. Tyranids and Orks: To compensate for the lack of tactical flexibility of their units (and low Ld), both these races will have the Sustained Attack special rule for basic Boyz and Gaunts.
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Post by Gabriel Lupus on May 30, 2011 4:00:54 GMT -5
Should Lieutenants/Officers provide a leadership buff to the rank and file... I'm quite tempted to say no to this. Although they are the ones who will be orchestrating the battle, Ialways question why having officer level bunnies make other troopers "braver": "I'm terrified of this ravenous Daemon beast that is threatening to eat me, my soul, and crap out my still aware brain... oh look, there's Lieutenant Fred... I'm not scared anymore..."
Personally I think presence of an Officer such allow a re-roll to the troops for moral (fear etc) tests, but that this should still be made against the troops in questions Ld.
As for sustained attack for the Boyz/Gaunts... certainly sounds appropriate for Gaunts... but I might need a little convincing for Da Boyz.
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Post by Rolling Thunder on May 30, 2011 16:20:35 GMT -5
Officers currently allow re-rolls on Activation Tests (nothing more). Standards will allow re-rolls on Morale tests, and the new Commissar and Inquisitor profiles both grant their Ld to units within 12" (and the Commissar also grants Stubborn).
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Post by Shostak(AWOL) on Jun 4, 2011 2:55:31 GMT -5
I like the charge reactions, it's very specific. Something really missing from GW games is the ability to, when your opponent runs at you screaming, run straight back at them.
Edit. Do you plan on introducing some kind of rule for ipcking up the standard when it goes down, to me it stands to reason that the soldiers will raise the colours even as they fall.
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Post by Rolling Thunder on Jun 20, 2011 17:05:04 GMT -5
Hmmm, not a bad idea 'Stak, I'm just looking at refining the whole leadership aspect of human armies right now.
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Post by Rook on Jul 2, 2011 21:09:12 GMT -5
Wow, this is looking good RT! I'm going to go back to page one and really take time getting into this.
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Post by Rolling Thunder on Jul 3, 2011 7:59:57 GMT -5
Thanks Rook!
Okay, some ideas I had:
Moving and Firing: I recently spent some time playing Arma II, mucking around with airsoft weapons and doing a little work with real-life firearms as well. And what I thought might be appropriate was:
- The introduction of a new class of troop: Militia/PDF/troll: A BS3, Ld6 Conscript. Regular Guardsmen would be buffed to BS4 and Marksmen/Elites would be buffed to BS5, representing the fact that it's quite easy to shoot someone even at range with a semi-automatic weapon, even with only rudimentary training.
To balance this, there would be a general -1 To Hit penalty for all weapons for moving and firing [with the exception of burners, scattershot shotguns, submachine guns, pistols and other assault-ish weapons]. This would replace most of the Move-And-Fire penalties on other weapons [with the exception of things like GPMGs.] Thoughts?
- Also, to balance out the somewhat heavy emphasis on firepower in this game, I considered changing running from 6+D6" to a 12" move, thus enhancing the mobility of infantry units and speeding the game up [it also makes a little more sense now - you can stay still, and open up with full effectiveness, you can move and fire, or you can just tear ass as fast as you can].
- I'm also going to introduce hellguns as an Imperium-specific special weapon.
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Post by Walrus on Jul 3, 2011 8:04:17 GMT -5
A very solid idea set there RT.
I suppose the hellgun could be an Imperial-specific weapon, but if you had heretics who went/go over to the dark side, they very well may hang on to their Imperial weapons.
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Post by Rolling Thunder on Jul 3, 2011 9:22:50 GMT -5
True, but the chances are that they'd soon break, considering the complexity of the hellgun. Of course, this argument could be applied to bolters, but then again, the bolters of the Traitor Marines are usually possessed [and, of course, Traitor Marines are right at the top of the Chaos hierarchy along with Warmasters and traitor Principes, so can barter with the Dark Mechanicum for spares and replacements more than even the most effective Blood Pack soldier ever could.].
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Post by Walrus on Jul 3, 2011 9:35:17 GMT -5
A valid point there. Your logic is smooth.
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Post by Rolling Thunder on Jul 3, 2011 11:23:27 GMT -5
Also thinking how to work the special deployment rules in.
Infiltrate is being split into two "echelons", as it were.
Infiltrate [Forward Deployment]: Is the standard Infiltrate rule as it reads in the rulebook [deploy within 18" if enemy can see you, within 12" if they cannot]. Infiltrate [Ambush]: This is a rule which allows certain units to spring tactical ambushes on the enemy. In essence, it functions similar to deep strike, without the scatter, except: - The unit does not count as moving - It must deploy either in a terrain piece [or behind one such as a barricade or wall that could block LoS].
Deep Strike [Combat Drop]: Represents units tunnelling, teleporting or otherwise arriving in a fashion relatively prepared for battle, but not completely. Standard DS rules. Deep Strike [Death From Above/Below]: Similar, but may deploy the units directly onto enemy units and straight into close assault [similar to the deployment of the Trygon/Mawloc/Vanguard Vet squads]. However, if the unit scatters off-target, it may not move or use shooting attacks.
Camoflage rules:
Camo: Gives an additional -1 To Hit Penalty when in cover. Stealth field: Gives a -2 To Hit Penalty whether in cover or not.
Also: Bayonets. They now count as a two-handed close combat weapon on the charge, so you'll be hitting home at S4. Light Support Weapons were removed on the grounds of their being useless, as, in combat terms, they have no advantages compared to a GPMG [aside from lighter ammo, which I cannot effectively model].
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Post by Shostak(AWOL) on Jul 4, 2011 15:39:27 GMT -5
Yay! Bayonets do something more than look good!
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Post by Jackal-0311 on Jul 5, 2011 1:45:40 GMT -5
Surely marines can have snipers? They not only have scouts with actual sniper rifles, but bolters can be used at quite a long range with all those weird types of ammo they can get. Not exactly sniping but longer range than you would think a bolter would work at. True, but if you look at the SM they don't pride them selves as being high-speed ninjas. They are a close in assault/in your face kind of force. I have never fully agreed with SM scout sniper team, it just dosn't fit the overall profile. I like the direction your going RT.
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Post by Rolling Thunder on Jul 6, 2011 6:36:23 GMT -5
Hey everyone:
I've just come up from reading a bit about OPfire/fire and movement/pepperpotting/et al, and I'm considering reworking the Overwatch system a bit. I think there needs to be some kind of defined area for overwatching fire [so to prevent people overwatching everything a unit can see, including directly behind them].
I also think that a unit should be able to move and overwatch needs including, HOWEVER, if a unit does try to move and overwatch, it has to take an Overwatch test [basically a Ld test]. Failing this will result in:
1. Overwatch immediately breaking. 2. The enemy receiving the initiative [i.e. your turn immediately ends. Prepare your anus.]
-Also: Auspexes: They will allow units to re-roll failed Overwatch tests.
What do you think, gentlemen?
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Post by Walrus on Jul 6, 2011 9:06:49 GMT -5
Sounds smart... With the direction of overwatch, maybe have the unit function like a tank firing in the normal rules set I.e with the firing arcs (edge of the arc starts from edge of squad). Have them choose a direction, then have them focus on a specific arc and have them not move away from that arc without the overwatch test. For example, a squad of let's say guardsmen attempt for overwatch. They pass. That unit now picks a direction, and can only shoot at things in that arc. Because they are so focused on the area they are overwatching, they are vunerable to attacks from the flank or rear. This means our squad of guardsmen can go into overwatch, covering a ravine exit you know enemy will come out of. However, they can be approached from the sides and rear without fear of being attacked, as this will force the squad of guardsman to ignore the threat, or make the test to move their arc. I think that makes sense
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