Tervigons produce how many?

[treadiculous]

I am wondering how many models on average a Tervigon would produce, well, more specifically, how many I will need to have made a painted ready for a game if I were to field a Tervigon and 10 strong Termagaunt Brood.

I figure on 3D6 the average is 10.5, so over 3 turns I'd need 30, plus the 10 I started with... but I figure they'll get shot up pretty quickly
too...

The Termagaunt role is to provide a screen for Nid warriors and a Venomthrope and generally be a swarmy distraction.

The Tervigon is a proper monster, so would like to see it get in to combat, though its tempting to hide it and just spawn termagaunts.

My 1k list (not yet bought) would be like this:

Mawloc
Mawloc
Trygon

3 Nid + Prime
3 Nid + Prime

Lictor

Venomthrope

Lictor guides deepstrikers, trygon makes hole, 1 lot of nids + prime come through hole, other nids + prime advance overland.

The extra 500 would go on:

Tervigon + 10 Termagaunt
Tervigon + 10 Termagaunt

3 Ravenors / Zoanthrope


What do you think... its got a lot of cool monsters, its not at all competitive, and has a nice moster mash feel.

What do you think of using converted Carnifex as Tervigons?

[WestRider]

First off, here's one of the better posts I've seen looking at Tärvigon Spawns.

Second, I'm sorry, but relying on the Trygon Tunnels is a terrible idea. Since you can't control your Reserves in any meaningful way, and can't use the Tunnel until the Turn after the Trygon comes in, you usually end up having to walk on from your Board Edge and then slog all the way across the Table with most of the Units that were hoping to go through the Tunnel.

I use a conversion options I made for one of my Magna-Fexen as one of my Tärvs and a Forge World Malanthrope as the other. You might want to be careful about how you do the Modeling on your Tärvs, leave yourself the option to turn them into something else if a Tärvigon kit does come out and ends up being so differently sized from your Conversions that you can't really use them.

Finally, this is one of my pet peeves: Ravenor, with an 'o' is an Ordo Xenos Inquisitor, studied under Inquisitor Eisenhorn. Ravener, with an 'e' in that last syllable, is a Tyranid Beast that eats face.

While we're on the topic, I'd get more Ravs if you're going to use them at all. They really need 5-6 per Brood to work well in my experience. They also need Toxin Sacs, but Cruddace saw fit to leave that little detail out

[treadiculous]

Cool, Thanks for te advice, and the link is great - very clear and easy to understand.

You're right about Trygon tunnels too... they sound cool but wouldn't work in a small game

I think I'll lose the lictor and venomthrope, and make 3 mawloc instead of a trygon in the 1k list and get more Nids.

I'm thinking to use RavenEr (!... thanks for pointing out my error!) models as the Nids as they look better (IMO) and come with 2 sets of scything claws as standard.

I'm goping to lose the raveners too, and get a venomthrope to help protect the termagaunts...I may use hormagaunts instead of terms as again I think they look better and I plan to never shoot with this army (odd.. yes). I think Carnifex will make good tervigons as the image on the terv page is similar to a carnifex, and they look bulky enough to spawn things. (though the malanthrope is a beuatiful model its a little beyond budget - less than £250 if possible).

This makkes this 1k list:

5 nids + 1 Prime
5 nids + 1 Prime

3 mawloc

and at 1.5k I add

Venomthrope
Tervigon +adrenal glands + 10 gaunt
Tervigon +adrenal glands + 10 gaunt

its simple...one of the cheapest load out in £'s but is it competitive?

--Edit--

I'm concerned about S8 weaponry vs the Nids, as Leman Russ will devastate their ranks very quickly!...

I'm also hoping to have as many Monsterous Critters as possible, and I just realsied nids don't count. (boo).

so.. try again:

List 2

Tervigon + 20 gaunt
Nid Prime + 5 Warriors

Mawloc
Mawloc

lictor
zoanthrope
venomthrope

So maybe this is better for 1k - more MC, more variety, less instant death, maybe a bit too few of each specialist, but provides me with nice painting / modeling opportunities and a few different tactical approaches.

As you can probably tell I'm a bit lost for what to use to make a good monster army...

Hmmm.. just noticed the rediculous Lictor special rule... may not assault on turn it reveals itself.. then what is the point of it!

---Final Edit ---

List 3

Tyrant + Old Adversary

Tervigon + Adrenal Glands + 15 Gaunt (or Nid prime + 5 Nids?)
Tervigon + Adrenal Glands + 15 Gaunt

Mawloc
Mawloc

= 1005

Trygon Prime (or Tyranofex + Rupture?)

Venomthrope x 2
Zoanthrope x 2

= 1495

or switch out a few bits for a deathleaper (normally I don't play special characters, but I want to paint up a lictor and the leaper seems to be best fit the fluff...)


oh, and finally finally, is a Tyranofex better than a Trygon Prime... thinkin I could use the Pyrovore model as a proxy... (adding even more cool monsters to the list).

[WestRider]

OK, I like that last list best of the lot, but it could still use some tweaks.

It's built around the same combo I use as the core of my Competitive List(Old Adversary+Venomthropes+Tärvigon=really scary Gaunts), so I obviously think that's a good start. Without Guards, that Tyrant's probably going to die pretty quickly, though. I'd pick up at least one at 1500, maybe 2. If Krak Missiles are the big problem you face, an Armoured Shell may suffice.

Paroxysm is the obvious first Psychic Power choice, while The Horror just sucks. Either of the other two are decent as a secondary power.

Get Toxin Sacs and one of the Psychic Powers on the Tärvigons. Catalyst is probably the most useful here, though Onslaught is good with walking 'Thropes. Drop a few Gaunts for the Points.

Toxin Sacs is the must-have for Tärvigons, that's what really turns the Gaunts into little death machines. Adrenal Glands is a nice bonus, and I like having both, but if you're only taking one, make it Toxin Sacs. Catalyst is one of the better support powers in the Game, especially for 3+Sv MCs, who can go down quickly to Krak Missile fire.

I'm really not a fan of the Mawloc. You're paying quite a lot of points for a BS0 S6 AP2 Large Blast that allows Cover Saves, and is only going to get to "fire" 2-3 times per Game. I personally think pretty much anything you subbed in except Pyrovores or Rippers would be a better use of those Points.

The only place it's really good is against Castles or Parking Lot Armies, where it pretty much can't miss, and you will need the help against Parking Lots, since you have no other reliable Anti-Tank, but I still think there are better ways to shore up those weaknesses.

Speaking of reliable Anti-Tank, Close Combat and a pair of 'Thropes doesn't cut it. 'Thropes hit hard when they hit, but with their short range, low RoF, and vulnerability to Psychic Defense, whiff way too often to be called reliable. Hive Guard are a standard for a reason, and as much as I think they're an abomination from a Fluff point of view, from a raw effectiveness viewpoint, they're the best thing added in this version of the Dex.

Here's my take on the Wall o' T6 Army:
1K:
Tyrant, Armoured Shell, Old Adversary, Regenerate, 3 Guard with Lash Whips
Tyranid Prime, BoneSword/Lash Whip, Regenerate
2x2 Hive Guard
Tärvigon, Toxin Sacs, Adrenal Glands, Catalyst
10 Gaunts

1.5K - Add:
2 Hive Guard (1 to each Brood)
2 Venomthropes
another Tärvigon and Gaunts to pull it into Troops

2K - Add:
2xT-Fex with Rupture Cannon

At 1500 and 2K, I think there are still some Points to play around with. The Prime could pick up Toxin Sacs, fill in with a few more Gaunts, take a gun for the Tyrant (just keep his Bonesword and Lash Whip), pick up Catalyst, plenty of options there.

The Prime generally goes with the Tyrant and Guard for Wound Allocation/Regen shenanigans, but can also help out by joining the Venomthropes to spread the Spore Cloud out further and protect against ID from S8-9 fire.

If you want a more Assault-based option, swapping the T-Fexen out for Trygons is certainly feasible, and frees up quite a few Points to fool around with. Trim aggressively and you might be able to fit in three Trygons at 2K.

[treadiculous]

Tyrant + Old Adversary, Armoured Shell, Regen

Tervigon, Toxic + Catalyst, + 10 Gaunt

Tervigon, Toxic + Catalyst, + 10 Gaunt

Trygon + Regen

Venomhrope

= 1000

Tyrant Guard x 2

Trygon

Ravener x 6

= 1500

My Raveners I might Proxy as Nid Warriors + Prime vs Tervigon + Gaunts, and I may lose 1 Ravener to make the Trygon Regen.

This list has a nice mesh of psychic stuff going on, making the Gaunts deadly, and giving it a entwined psychic feel which I like, as each monster has a supporting effect to other critters in the force (aside from the gaunts and the Trygons). In the 1.5k list there's a little more distraction and flanking available to detract the enemy from blasting me up too much before I get to their lines, with a fair bit of regen and some seriously tough critters it should hold up quite well.

I do feel nervous about having such an expensive Tyrant, but hey, gives him a good £££'s to points ratio! I suppose at 1k the Tyrant is a little exposed, though with all the upgrades it should do okay no?

I'd certainly be wary facing this with any of my armies, and in a tourney or against 'all comers' style list I think it'll do well.

is there anything to watch out for?...I suppose Raveners still suffer from ID from Leman and Krak, and snipers and pathfinders especially will do well against this list...

Thank you for all your help, I now feel I'm looking at a cool force that'll mash up its foe and look awesome at the same time!

PS - as a curiosity, whats the deal with Gargoyls... I've heard them called all manner of unpleasant things... are they broken good or broken bad?. (I do not wish to field them either way, just interested).

[WestRider]

Looking pretty good. I'd probably drop Regen* on the Trygon to pick up Adrenal Glands for the Tärvs as well, since I really like having both buffs on there. Otherwise, looks nice.

Tyrants are going to be expensive. No way around it. They're a "go big or go home" kind of Unit. If you want a cheap HQ, get a Tyranid Prime instead. If you're taking a Tyrant, you need to acknowledge that you've chosen an expensive HQ, and not skimp on the things he needs to be effective at his job.

Keep your Ravs in Cover, and they actually hold up to Missile Fire reasonably well. Remember also that any Missiles hitting your Ravs aren't hitting your Tärvigons. This can actually be a decent argument for going with another Guard on the Tyrant instead of the 2+ Save, to give your Opponent way too many targets for his Krak Missiles.

Gargoyles rock. They make a great screen, since they're fast enough that they will never get hung up on a bad Difficult Terrain/Run Roll and block in your other Units, and with the Wings, they cover enough space that they can often provide Cover even to Tyrants and Fexen if you arrange them right. With Toxin Sacs, Adrenal Glands, and an Old Adversary Flyrant backing them up, they turn into little blenders, even better than Gaunts with a Tärv and OA Tyrant because of Blinding Venom and the fact that they've got the speed to nearly always get the Charge.

*Regenerate: I don't really like Regen on single Models. They're too easy to drop quickly enough that it won't come into play. I usually only take it in situations where I can pull Wound Allocation tricks to give myself more time to Regenerate. In the Army I listed above, I load Wounds fired at my HQ onto the Prime and Tyrant at first, and once they've each picked up a couple, start allocating more heavily to the Guards, giving myself more time to roll those 6s.

It's almost always worthwhile on a Tyranid Prime because A) it's really cheap for him and B) he's always going to be in another Unit, so you can spread Wounds around and give him time to Regen.

Other than the DeathStar HQ I described and a Prime, it's pretty much only worthwhile on Fexen who are going to be joined by a Prime to make a "FexStar" Unit, again because you can allocate and spread Wounds around. Any other situation, you can be too easily focus-fired down before getting to Regen.

[treadiculous]

Am I right in thinking that the Adrenal Glands on the Tervs will only be adding to the Gaunts Iniative (as they are wounding on 4+ due to toxic sacs). At Iniative 4 they do quite well already (vs guard and orks), vs marines its simultaneous, and eldar may get to strike beforehand... hmm, maybe it's worth it - seems more likely to be useful than regen on a trygon - as you've pointed out.

If I drop a Ravener and Armoured Shell I'll be able to pick up another Tyrant Guard, and have a few spare points for some added fun somewhere, though its hard to make that happen in the 1k list (adding the Tyrant Guard that is) without losing the cool snake monster *ach-hem* sorry I mean trygon.

Oh... Is it better to deploy a Trygon on the table, or in reserve?... deepstrike is unreliable (at least turn 2 arrival, maybe never, and then can scatter and die, and even when it arrives it can NOT assault in same turn as it arrived), but deepstrike can scare people into acting really strange!

With a Mawloc its easy as they start on table then burrow in turn 1 guaranteeing they arrive turn 2.

I considered a Flyrant, with Gargoyles it'd be messy!.. but I am going to focuss on my big snakes and huge monsters list. (with some tough as nails likle gribblies knawing their way through ankles and tank tracks)

So far this last list is also the cheapest list, (I think a lot to do with the large points cost for the Tyrant)... though the additional Gaunts do eat up a fair bit (I'm planning to get 50 in total and see how it goes).

Thanks for your help Westrider, much appreciated!

[WestRider]

The Adrenal Glands take them up to S4. When your Strength is equal to or higher than the target's Toughness, and you've got Poisoned Attacks, you get to Re-Roll your To-Wound Rolls. So on the Charge, the Gaunts get I5 to strike before MEqs, AND get Re-Rolls for 50% more Wounds and added reliability.

Note though, that a Model with Poisoned Attacks still always Wounds on that fixed number, so the Tärvigon will still just be Wounding Marines on 4+ with a Re-Roll, even though it goes up to S6 on the Charge.

The Trygon is usually best started on the Table unless you're doing a Null Deployment List. He, the Tyrant, the Tärvigons, and the Raveners all draw the same kind of firepower, so the more of those you're getting up in your Opponent's face, the harder his Target Priority decisions become. If he knows that he's not going to have to deal with the Trygon until Turn 3 at the earliest (Because it's shooting isn't really that scary, and it can't Assault on the Turn it Deep Strikes), that makes his decisions easier, makes it less likely for him to make mistakes that you can exploit.

You're Welcome! Always happy to help.

[cheminhaler]

Just a note : don't forget about the rolling doubles = no more gaunt breeding bit...

So really it's about the odds of not rolling doubles all game. I'm no maths expert but the odds of rolling a double must be pretty high anyway. Think about it.. any double on 3d6 every time you try..

[WestRider]

Roughly a 44% chance of doubling out every time you Spawn. With two Tärvs, that means they'll both go dry on the first Spawn about once every 5 Games or so. The simulation in the post I linked to does take that into account.

[treadiculous]

I'm wondering if the Raveners are the best choice in the 1.5k list, I mean I really like the model, and they help add to the 'snakey' feel of the army, but I wonder wether getting another trygon is a better idea.. or looking at other supporting units like the venomthrope / zoanthrope etc.

Main reasons for:
added cost of ravener over trygon, I think the ravener will cause a distraction, being beasts they can charge a huge range, and can put out more attacks than a trygon... also can proxy as tyranids with scything claws if needed.

against:
not a T6 wall of death beast!.. cost more

but for approx 200 points, is there a better combo?

[WestRider]

As much as I love Raveners, another Trygon probably will do you better there.

Never forget the possibility of Hive Guard when you've got Points and Elites Slots open, either. They help with the T6 saturation and provide very useful Firepower. It's really hard to go wrong with adding Hive Guard to a list.

[treadiculous]

I've been thinking this over most of today.. the Raveners get a lot more wounds (as long as they don't face instant death), have I5 so can beat up marines good n proper, and have a whole bunch of attacks with re-rolls... okay so they can't cut any armour but they'll be facing my guard and ork hordes quite frequently so that shouldn't be too much of an issue!

I still can't decide but it'll be a while before I can afford anything so I've plenty of time to mull this over.

What I'm pondering at the moment is whether another Tervigon and 10 Gaunt are a better option, bringing more troops and another T6 beastie, plus a load of gribblies ..(though I'd have to trim the other bonus's elsewhere, and it'd cost more in cash too)

As for the Hive Guard, I understand the reasons, but want to stick with a no guns army...

[WestRider]

OK, I'm kind of losing track of where the List is at this point. You've already got two Tärvs in there, right? That should be enough up to about 2K or so. 2500 is where I think you really start needing a third.

If you're just going to be facing Orks and Guard mostly, Raveners start looking rather better. The main places the Trygon pulls ahead are taking down moving Vehicles and dealing with well-Armoured Infantry. He does still have the advantage that he fights at full effect until he keels over, while the Ravs gradually slide down in effectiveness as they take damage.