tyranid tips!!!!

[connor]

ok yall, i got some questions for you. i dont play tyranids, but this new kid does, and their is another kid who is going to start playing nids. so i got two new nid kids. They are in the same situation as me when i started playing 40k, i was the only one who did guard, so their was no one too show me how to play guard well. it took me a long time to start actually winning.
their the only nid players in are shop so what tips or tricks could you guys tell these kids?

the one has
1 hive tyrant
3 warriors
8 genestealers
12 hermo
12 of the other little dudes
1tyronefex(the one that has babys)
1 mawloc/trygon
1 venomthrope

the new kid who is waiting for his birthday to start is going to get two tyranid battle boxes or somehting, im not to sure what comes in those.

the thing that usualy happens is his hive tyrant gets shot down before he can get it in combat. and his dudes get pretty much shot down. he uses his mawloc to submerge then remerge across the battlefield, wich usualy kills alot fo guys, but it does get shot down eventually.

i usualy tend to "forget" to shoot some stuff to give him a chance to kill some stuff. but most of the other guys just want to destroy him because he is new. they dont really help him at all. and i cant give him any advice cause i never really read the nid dex. and with another kid on the way, i need some stuff to teach them.

so anyway...
1. how do you keep your stuff alive?
2what units are worth it in the nid dex and whats not.
3 is the hive tyrant the best choice for an HQ?
4 what loadouts to take for warriors and tyrant.
5 pretty how to play nids in general.


thanks yall, i just dont whant these kids to be beaten down so much that they want to quit 40k all together.
anything you guys can help with will be very appreciated

[WestRider]

Nids are a hard Army to give tips for in text. A lot of what you need to make them work is learning positioning and timing on the table, and there's no way to do that except putting Models down on the board and going for it. They also require a very clear understanding of a number of basic Rules, which can take a while to pick up all the subtleties. That said, there are some useful guidelines:

1A) Target Saturation: Nids (like most Armies, but to a greater extent) work best when they're skewed hard to one direction or another. Go either hardcore Swarm, with few MCs or Multi-Wound T4 Models, or go Neo-Zilla, and throw up a Wall o' T6/Multi-Wound T4. The Multi-Wound T4 Models fit in well with the big bugs because they tend to draw the same kind of S8+ Firepower that people want to be directing at the MCs.

1B) Venomthropes. An often overlooked Unit, because they don't actually do any damage, and 5+ Cover doesn't look that great. 5+ Cover still means that it takes 6 Wounds instead of 4 to drop a Fex, or 9 instead of 6 to drop a Trygon. The real benefit, though, is against Armies that are willing to Assault you. Contrary to popular belief, Nids are not the #1 CC Army in 40K, and there are a number of other forces (particularly certain SW, BA, and GK builds) that will be more than happy to come at you. Forcing them to Assault through Dangerous Terrain and taking away their bonus Attacks for Assaulting really helps to slow them down.

These are one of the Units with a key Rules Point: A Unit is within range of their ability as long as even one Model from it is within 6" of a Venomthrope. You can string Gaunt Broods out from them, and end up causing Dangerous Terrain Tests on Units halfway across the Table.

1C) Charge Screening. Like everybody else, Nids do better in Assaults when they charge. But they don't have the Mobility to reliably get the charge off against many of the nastier opposing Units. The answer is Charge Screening (sometimes referred to these days as "bubble wrapping"). Take something cheap and numerous (i.e. basic Gaunts or Hormies), and put them inbetween your Units and whatever's bearing down on you. Key points:
- Make sure you have enough that they can get shot up a bit without losing coverage.
- Make sure you've got them wrapped around your sides, so a fast unit can't just go around the Screen.
- Keep the gap between Models in the screen at 1" or less. When Assaulting, Units can move through other Units as long as there's a gap bigger than their base. Don't give them this.
- Keep them in relatively close to the Units they're protecting. You don't want to leave enough room for your Opponent to Tank Shock through the Screen with a Land Raider, disembark the Unit inside, and get the charge off.

2) Honestly, the only truly bad Units in the Nid Dex are Pyrovores and Rippers. However, there are a number that are difficult to use well, and probably not great choices for beginners. Some good solid options to start might be:
HQ: Tyrants, Tärvigons, Tyranid Primes
Elite: Hive Guard*, Zoanthropes, Venomthropes
Troops: Any except Rippers
Fast Attack: Gargoyles, maybe Shrikes and Raveners
Heavy Support: Trygons, Dakkafexen (Fex with 2xTwin-Linked Devourers with Brainleech Worms) (maybe Tyrannofexen if you're playing large enough games. Don't bother at less than 2K)

Hive Guard get a star because they're that good ;D

3) The Nids have very few Units that are out and out better or worse than others. Almost everything in the Dex can be viable in the right Army. Depending on Points Level and the rest of the list, the Tyrant, Prime, and Tärvigon can all be excellent HQ options.

4A) Warrior Builds:
- Backfield Objective Holder/Synapse: 3 Warriors, 1 Barbed Strangler
- Midfield Synapse/Shooty: 5-6 Warriors, DeathSpitters, 1 Barbed Strangler
- Assault: 4-6 Warriors, Lash Whip & Bone Sword+any of the free options for the other pair of Arms, Toxin Sacs.
- Any of those Builds can benefit from a Prime joining them, though the Backfield Unit gains the least from it. If there's lots of AV10 around (particularly if it's Open Topped), Venom Cannon become a better option than the Stranglers. A BS or VC can be useful in an Assault Brood as well if you know how to use the Wound Allocation Rules.

4B) Tyrant Builds:
- General principles: Pretty much every Tyrant should have Old Adversary. It's one of the best buff auras in the Game. Makes a huge chunk of your Army better. See the Venomthrope notes for more about maxing Buff Auras.
- At 1K or more, you should have at least one Guard for a Walkrant. Two Guards at 1500, 3 at 2K. The 2+ Save can often substitute for one Guard, and if you're relying on your Tyrant, may be taken as well. It's usually worth upgrading Tyrant Guard to Lash Whips. Bare bones or Bone Swords aren't bad, but Lash Whips are more useful.
- Guards also make it easier to get Cover Saves. Since the Guards can get Cover like regular Infantry (i.e. by having any part of the Model Obscured, simply standing in Area Terrain, etc.), it's pretty easy to have half the Unit in Cover, and if half or more of the Unit is in Cover, the whole Unit may take Cover Saves, even Models that are not in Cover because they're an MC and are held to a more stringent standard when alone.
- Paroxysm should always be taken. One of the nastiest Psychic Powers in the Game. On the flip side, never take The Horror. The other two are both decent, but not spectacular. Leech Essence is better against T3, while Psychic Scream is best against MSU Armies with mediocre Ld.
- Flyrant: Wings, Lash Whip & Bone Sword, TL Devs. Can also go with dual TL Devs (shootier, but has to sacrifice firepower to use a Psychic Power, and riskier to use in some Assaults) or dual ScyTals (for Re-Rolls to Hit against fast-moving Vehicles). Should probably roll with a screen of 10-20 Gargoyles. If there are more than 15 or so Gargs, they should be tooled up with Adrenal Glands and Toxin Sacs. For Reserves Lists, this is your guy, just add Hive Commander.
- Support Tyrant: Heavy Venom Cannon OR TL Devourers, plus Lash Whip & Bone Sword. This guy walks up the field taking potshots and buffing everyone around him. This is about as cheap as a Tyrant build should go.
- Dakka Tyrant: 2xTL Devourers. Lots of Anti-Infantry/light Armour firepower, for a decrease in Combat ability.
- The Ultimate DeathStar: Armoured Shell, Devourers, Lash Whip, & Bone Sword, Regeneration, Old Adversary, and 3 Guard with Lash Whips. Join a Tyranid Prime with Lash Whip, Bone Sword, Toxin Sacs, and Regeneration. Abuse the hell out of the Wound Allocation Rules to put Wounds on the Tyrant and Prime early on, and then ease off to give them time to roll 6s to Regenerate. Keep it in Cover and Charge Screened and there's pretty much no one Unit in 40K that can take this down. The only times I've lost the Unit were when I messed up my screening and then got hit by multiple strong Assault Units with attached Characters. On the flipside, it is something like a 600 Point, rather slow Unit, so you kind of have to build your Army and Strategy around it. Maybe not the best choice for beginners.

5) General Principles:
- Boyz before Toyz. Yeah, that's the Ork Phrasing, but it still applies. Unless some upgrade makes a Unit better at a very narrowly defined Role, don't bother with it, spend the Points on more Models. There are certain Units (most notably: Tyrants, Assault Warriors, Tärvigons, Hormagaunts, Gargoyles), where the upgrades are either necessary to get the job done at all, or cheap enough that they are worthwhile. But if you're taking it "because it might come in useful", don't bother.
- Tärvigons: Another Buff Aura Unit. See the Venomthrope Entry for tips there. When Gaunts are in range of a Tärvvigon, Venomthrope, and Old Adversary Tyrant, they become absolutely ridiculous. As in, 10 Termagants become a serious threat to Terminators. Overlapping Buff Auras is one of the most powerful tricks in the Nid toolbox. The Tärv also brings a couple of useful Psychic Powers, and of course can spawn more Gaunts. See Treadiculous's thread for some more details on that point.

OK, that's it for now. I'm going to go watch Buffy and veg out for a while. I'll probably come back later and add some more.

[3ff3ct]

Bonesword Warrior Prime with two venomthropes makes for a great character hunter There's deep striking lists too which can be quite nasty, I think Westrider has covered most of the basics though, and i'm sure he'll get onto that next

There's no 'set' way to play nids, as with most armies in 40k. Mix it up and see what works best!

[krasimirova]

The general Nid army i tend to face is as follows:

Layers of gaunts being spawned by tervigons run in front of Tyrant with guards, said tyrants no longer counting as a MC for shooting purpose gets a cover save from the gaunts.. Behind the Tyrants you have the Tervigons (The breeding thingy as you point out).. And then they try and fit in as many hive guards as possible, since they are the only real shooty unit they have.. All of this move forward until they can get a charge off.. Some times they spice things up with Trygons too..

Or you could run a Flying circus build with tyrants being surronded by gargoyles..

Other than that listen to westrider, he seems to know his stuff..

[Ymmot (M.I.A)]

I would love to read any advice Westrider has about Genestealers and Ymgarls. My favorite monsters in all of 40k.

[KRIEGEIRK]

Aug 12, 2011 12:13:23 GMT -5 Ymmot (M.I.A) said:

I would love to read any advice Westrider has about Genestealers and Ymgarls. My favorite monsters in all of 40k.

Agreed, Ymmot. Did they ever make any Ymargl Genestealer's as actual figures? If they didn't they should probably jump on that bandwagon because I would just purchase some for poops and giggles

[WestRider]

Sorry, guys, can't really help you with Stealers, since I've only used them once. Long story.

However, I will be adding on to this sometime next week, after I get back from OFCC.

[Ymmot (M.I.A)]

I just might be the only person who's only complaint about the current Tyranid codex is the lack of a Brood Lord HQ.


Ymgarls are cool, a small group can find a place to hide in most terrain...you don't have to decide where to put them until both sides have deployed, makes your opponent sweat bullets while he is setting up. It is great fun.


I have 20 made from tentacle heads and extended carapace pieces.

[3ff3ct]

^ I did the same.

krasimirova: Theres other good shooty units in a nid list available, its just that hive guard are great against armour (which is handy against the predominant 5th ed mech lists) and can shoot around corners.

Zoans are great at anti-tank too, although they require LOS. Venom cannons/heavy venom cannons are also pretty good, although not as good as the other two in my opinion (well, theres a time and a place, and some people prefer some over others etc etc!)

[Jackal-0311]

Hey Westrider, have been to the Gig Harbor GW store?

[guardsman83]

meh im partial to the "swarm the poor blighters with endless waves of gaunts and throw in a few MC's to knock out tanks" tactic. in short put out a load of hormagaunts on the table, it works for me

[WestRider]

OK, here goes round two. Trying to break things down a bit, since looking at the Nid List as a whole gets kind of overwhelming. This time, a brief overview of some of the reasonably viable Nid Builds. Only a couple of them can really hold up to serious Tournament play, but if you're playing more casually, the options open up quite a bit.

- Balanced, AKA "The Battleforce List": Like the name implies, a bit of everything. At 2K, you're probably looking at 3-5 MCs, 50-70 little bugs, and maybe a dozen or so on 40mm Bases. Not suitable for Tournament play because they tend to lack focus, and allow Lists that brought answers to both Hordes and MCs to use all their options at full effectiveness. Pretty much anything goes here, but make sure you've got your bases covered: Anti-Tank, Anti-Infantry, Objective Holding, ability to deal with both Firepower and Assaults.

- Neo-Zilla, AKA Wall o' T6: The classic FexSpam version of Nidzilla is dead now for a number of reasons, not least among them the massive increase in the cost of Fexen. But we've now got a whole bunch of other MC options to play with, many of which open up all kinds of options unheard up before. Typically led by a Tyrant with Guard, and featuring Hive Guard in Elites, Tärvigons in Troops, and Trygons, T-Fexen, or Fex Broods in Heavy Support. Fast Attack doesn't play much role here, and don't mix up your Heavies. Pick one option and stick with that choice.
* Note that, between the Gaunts you took to pull the Tärvs into Troops and the ones they can Spawn, you do end up with quite a few little gribblies to play with here. Don't discount them. They're invaluable as Objective Campers and Screens, and when in range of a Tärv and an Old Adversary Tyrant, can actually dish out an astonishing amount of damage.
** If you're taking Fexen in Heavy Support, you should be running them at least in pairs, or as FexStars with a Tyranid Prime joined to a single Fex. A Trygon is straight up better than a single Fex on its own.
*** This is one of the most suitable variant for Tournament Play, for reasons that I'll go into at the end.

- Tärvigon Spam: Technically a subset of Neo-Zilla, but it plays differently enough that I think it deserves its own section. As the name implies, you're taking as many Tärvs as possible, and seeking to flood the field with buffed up Gaunts. Any remaining Points should go into Ranged Anti-Tank options. Where Neo-Zilla relies on the MCs to do the damage, and the Gaunts are mostly Support Units, here it's the Gaunts that will do most of the damage, while the rest of the Army serves to buff them up and/or crack Vehicles so the Gaunts can get at the creamy filling.

- Stealer Shock: Due to the lack of a Stealer HQ that Ymmot mentioned, "Pure" Stealer Shock sucks. If you add a solid non-Stealer core, though, you can have a very strong list. The SwarmLord is a nice choice here, since he provides buffs to both Reserves in general and more specifically to Outflanking. Elites are going to be some combination of Yealers, Hive Guard, and Podding Zoanthropes, since Anti-Tank is a notable weak point of Stealer Shock. A couple of DakkaFexen from Heavy Support can help as well, both to crack Transports and to deal with those rare Units that even Stealers don't really want to tangle with in an Assault. A Tärvigon or two can't hurt either; Catalyst is particularly nice on big Broods of Stealers.
* Most of my information here is second hand, since I've never played anything even remotely like this. Hybrid Stealer Shock Lists did turn in impressive showings at a couple of major Tournaments in the past year, though.

- Flying Circus: Pretty simple concept, take everything you can that can fly. A Flyrant or two, the Parasite of Mortrex, Shrikes, and Gargoyles. If you want to start on the Table most of the time, fill in Troops with a Tärv or two and some Gaunts, and take Hive Guard in Elites. If you want to play around with Reserves, you're looking at Podded DevilGaunts and maybe an Outflanking Tärv or big Brood of Hormies (courtesy of Hive Commander, which is essentially mandatory for Reserves Lists), and Podding 'Thropes and/or Lictors in Elite. Podding DakkaFexen can fill in from Heavy support if Points allow.
* The Flyrant is the obvious HQ here, but don't overlook the Parasite. Joined to a big Brood of Gargoyles, he can provide an incredibly durable Synapse source, and he's actually a pretty decent combatant. Just keep him away from S8+ Attacks.

- Drop List, AKA Mycetic Assault: There's some overlap with the previous list, since any Nid that can Fly can Deep Strike as well. Most of those Units are more or less Assault-based, though, and Deep Striking Assault Units is generally a bad idea. Here, we're mostly looking for Firepower Units: 'Thropes, DevilGaunts, and DakkaFexen in Spores provide the bulk of the Army, with a Hive Commander Dakka Flyrant helping to bring everything in on time, and maybe a pod full of Shooty Warriors for a little extra Synapse.
* The Army mostly lacks Mobility once it lands, but the fact that Spores only Mishap by going off the Table means that you can usually control your drops pretty accurately. Fast Mech Armies like BA or either version of Eldar can give you fits if you don't drop enough of their Vehicles when you first drop in, and a few bad choices can leave your Units strung out and unsupported.
** The TL DeathSpitter is your secondary Weapon of choice on Spores. With the requirement to fire at the nearest Enemy Unit and the poor BS, the Blasts are very risky, and 3 TL shots will rack up more Hits than 4 regular ones.
*** The FAQ hit this Build hard. Remember that Hive Commander doesn't stack, you can't drop empty Pods, and you can't Join a Prime to a Unit in a Pod.

- Hybrid Reserves List: Basically a mix of the previous three Builds, so you've got fast Flying Units that can come in on your Board Edge, some Outflankers (probably including a Tärv, DevilGaunts, or Hormies using Hive Commander), and some stuff coming down in Pods. Either the SwarmLord or a Hive Commander Tyrant is mandatory, and above 2K, it's probably best to try to squeeze in both.

- Pure Swarm: No MCs, minimal 40mm-based Units. You want a pair of Primes for your HQ and a couple of big Gaunt Broods to Join them to. Hormagaunts, Stealers, Gargoyles, and DevilGaunts provide the bulk of the Army. Hive Guard or Zoanthropes are necessary for Anti-Tank, and the 'Thropes help with Synapse as well.
* If you've got enough Gargs, the Parasite can replace one of the Primes for Forward Synapse.
** This can be a very powerful Build in untimed Games, but in Tournament Play, Time Limits will kill it. Up until the endgame, you're going to be losing, and it takes long enough to play that you usually won't get to Turns 5+ where you actually start to control the Game.

- Neo-Swarm: Basically a hybrid of Pure Swarm and Tärvigon Spam. Because of the Tärvigon Buffs, it tends to rely more on Termagants and Stealers rather than Hormagaunts and Gargoyles.
* Plays faster than Pure Swarm, but suffers from some of the same problems as Balanced Builds, in that it simplifies Target Priority for your Opponent.
** Probably a good idea to pick up at least one Tyranid Prime as well to maintain Synapse, since the Tärvs tend to draw a lot of fire.

- Vanguard Armies: A fluff-driven Build, based around the Tyranid Units that are typically dropped on Planets at the start of an Invasion. Lictors, Gargoyles, Genestealers (including Yealers), and Raveners form the core, with a Prime, the Parasite, or a Flyrant for HQ. Depending on how pure you want to keep the concept, Trygons or Podding 'Thropes and DakkaFexen can be added for some heavier hitting power.
* Note that Lictor/Gargoyle spam can actually get pretty ridiculously good. I know a couple of other Nid Players who have fooled around with lists including 9 Lictors (or 6+DeathLeaper) and 60+ Gargoyles, with great success.

- Middleweights: A Build focused around the 40mm-based Units. A pair of Tyranid Primes are pretty much mandatory, to buff the Warriors that you're going to be using as Troops. Elites are crammed as usual, with Hive Guard, Zoanthropes, and Lictors all bringing plenty of value. Troops are pretty obvious, a couple of smallish Warrior Broods tooled up for Assault and at least one bigger Shooty Brood for Objective Holding. MSU Shrikes and solid Broods of Raveners fill in for Fast Attack, while Heavy Support is pretty much left empty. If you can spare an Elites Slot, Venomthropes help a lot here, since you've got a lot of Multi-Wound T4 Models around, or break with the theme a bit and bring in some Gaunts and/or Gargoyles to Screen.
* This Build suffers from one of the same problems as Balanced Lists, but for a different reason. While the Balanced List presents different Units that make good Targets for all of your Opponent's various Weapons, the Middleweights Build presents a bunch of relatively uniform Units that each make a perfectly good target for either Anti-Infantry or Anti-Tank Weaponry.

OK, I think I'm missing a couple, but that should give you a pretty good overview of the possibilities.

Tournament Play: Neo-Zilla, Hybrid Stealer Shock, and Hybrid Reserves lists are the most suitable for Tournament Play. They're relatively* resilient and forgiving, play faster than many of the other Builds, and mess with your Opponent's Game plan one way or another. The other variants are too fragile (Flying Circus, Vanguard, Neo-Swarm, Middleweights), run up against Time Limits (both Swarm Variants, Tärv Spam), don't force your Opponent to make enough difficult choices (Balanced, Middleweights, Neo-Swarm, Tärv Spam), are missing key capabilities (Tärv Spam, Pure Stealer Shock, Pure Swarm), or don't have any options to mess with your Opponent's plans (Swarm Variants, Flying Circus, Tärv Spam).

The one Tournament I've taken Best General in with Nids in 5th Ed was with a Neo-Zilla list, and I've seen a couple of others do well. As I mentioned, several Players have placed well in major Tournaments recently with Hybrid Stealer Shock or Hybrid Reserves Lists as well.