Post by F.K.M on Sept 25, 2011 5:28:27 GMT -5
Well some of the things that annoy me about skaven in 8th are death frenzy not being as good as it could thanks to multiple ranks attacking. In the previous edition i'm pretty sure the 2nd rank (if you had spears) could have as many attacks as you want (consider them both having death frenzy). In 8th however you can't do that. There's max one attack per extra rank and i still have to deal with the death frenzy problem. I'd say death frenzy got a drop in some fights as you can still have a really wide first rank and get 2 extra attacks for this rank. However beyond a rank of 10 all the guys behind get diddly squat except one attack. This seems to help units with only 1 attack but a really strong attack like grave guard. Suddenly strength, toughness, re-rolls to hit and always strikes first boosts go much farther than more attacks per unit ever did.
Also the new rules with 3 attacks per rank for monstrous infantry gives ogres a ridiculous boost and it's not just ogres but minotaurs, trolls and somewhat rat ogres. Speaking of which frenzy doesn't really help rat ogres as much either as their bonus ability. Sure they're immune to psychology when it's active but they don't get extra attacks in multiple ranks and unlike some other units like trolls with regeneration or ogres and minotaurs with impact hits and a host of other abilities they're actually pretty bland. All they have is higher initiative and frenzy which doesn't even give them as many attacks as it could.
Also a big boost was skaven initiative being so high so you attacked first and could eliminate a row of attackers which then couldn't attack back. Now that's pretty much gone too. Hitting first doesn't really matter as an enemy can take up spots where their fallen were in every case except when they run out of extra men.
Of course elves and warriors of chaos still have a stupidly high initiative. Not to mention 8th gave high elves re-rolls to hit to go with their constant 'always strikes first' even with great weapons.
Also flanking with a bunch of skirmishers like say plague censers or a chariot is a hell of a lot less useful in 8th. In fact flanking a unit with more ranks is still not going to do anything to steadfast and at best may do something against ranks for combat resolution but that's it.
I'm not sure whether to love or hate the change in charging which used to allow your guys to attack first and now is only +1 combat resolution. It's basically useless unless you have lances or the charged unit has spears. The biggest problem about charging is it effects certain units.
For instance a good example of most of these problems effects plague censers. They're only initiative 3 and now that more ranks can attack and be steadfast (stubborn) even when flanked they don't do much. Even in the worst situations they can just reform and destroy me if i flanked them. In other situations if i try to attack the enemy in the front and the unit is sizeable my small unit of plague censers might not live all the attacks. Not to mention plague censers are flail and hatred units. That means they need to make a difference and kill things turn one. If they don't route their enemy turn one the battle is going to really be uphill unless you're fighting knights and hope the censer's fumes kill off maybe one or two knights. Even still it's an uphill battle even if you have a plague furnace and plague monks nearby giving them stubborn and higher leadership due to rank bonuses. My problem is that steadfast helps to ruin plague censers who suddenly can't take out a unit turn one. Suddenly you need to use them more as a flank killer and a small unit killer and possibly a unit that comes in later to finish off some stubborn unit that just won't die (provided they aren't warriors of chaos or something really tough).
Basically like i said before 8th ruined the whole strategy of flanking and using skirmishers. Now it's just big stupid units facing other big stupid units. That and monsters are the new focus. I'm not sure if i like or hate thunderstomp. It's good in most cases except against some guy's greater daemon of tzeentch special character that knew 2 whole lores and got a lot of attacks to thunderstomp my unit and get them to run.
Don't get me wrong though a focus on big units is good and big units of men is good for skaven esp. with steadfast as they stay in line and don't need to flank as often. However in most cases they'd probably die anyway. Problem is skirmishers and flankers have been hit incredibly hard.
So these are just things about 8th i kind of hate. There's a bunch of good in there too but i didn't really mention it. Some of these have bonuses i just wish that flanking an enemy didn't allow a large unit to always stay steadfast. It completely ruins tactics and suddenly it's just big fat units clogging up the fields like saturated fat in somebody's arteries.
Also the new rules with 3 attacks per rank for monstrous infantry gives ogres a ridiculous boost and it's not just ogres but minotaurs, trolls and somewhat rat ogres. Speaking of which frenzy doesn't really help rat ogres as much either as their bonus ability. Sure they're immune to psychology when it's active but they don't get extra attacks in multiple ranks and unlike some other units like trolls with regeneration or ogres and minotaurs with impact hits and a host of other abilities they're actually pretty bland. All they have is higher initiative and frenzy which doesn't even give them as many attacks as it could.
Also a big boost was skaven initiative being so high so you attacked first and could eliminate a row of attackers which then couldn't attack back. Now that's pretty much gone too. Hitting first doesn't really matter as an enemy can take up spots where their fallen were in every case except when they run out of extra men.
Of course elves and warriors of chaos still have a stupidly high initiative. Not to mention 8th gave high elves re-rolls to hit to go with their constant 'always strikes first' even with great weapons.
Also flanking with a bunch of skirmishers like say plague censers or a chariot is a hell of a lot less useful in 8th. In fact flanking a unit with more ranks is still not going to do anything to steadfast and at best may do something against ranks for combat resolution but that's it.
I'm not sure whether to love or hate the change in charging which used to allow your guys to attack first and now is only +1 combat resolution. It's basically useless unless you have lances or the charged unit has spears. The biggest problem about charging is it effects certain units.
For instance a good example of most of these problems effects plague censers. They're only initiative 3 and now that more ranks can attack and be steadfast (stubborn) even when flanked they don't do much. Even in the worst situations they can just reform and destroy me if i flanked them. In other situations if i try to attack the enemy in the front and the unit is sizeable my small unit of plague censers might not live all the attacks. Not to mention plague censers are flail and hatred units. That means they need to make a difference and kill things turn one. If they don't route their enemy turn one the battle is going to really be uphill unless you're fighting knights and hope the censer's fumes kill off maybe one or two knights. Even still it's an uphill battle even if you have a plague furnace and plague monks nearby giving them stubborn and higher leadership due to rank bonuses. My problem is that steadfast helps to ruin plague censers who suddenly can't take out a unit turn one. Suddenly you need to use them more as a flank killer and a small unit killer and possibly a unit that comes in later to finish off some stubborn unit that just won't die (provided they aren't warriors of chaos or something really tough).
Basically like i said before 8th ruined the whole strategy of flanking and using skirmishers. Now it's just big stupid units facing other big stupid units. That and monsters are the new focus. I'm not sure if i like or hate thunderstomp. It's good in most cases except against some guy's greater daemon of tzeentch special character that knew 2 whole lores and got a lot of attacks to thunderstomp my unit and get them to run.
Don't get me wrong though a focus on big units is good and big units of men is good for skaven esp. with steadfast as they stay in line and don't need to flank as often. However in most cases they'd probably die anyway. Problem is skirmishers and flankers have been hit incredibly hard.
So these are just things about 8th i kind of hate. There's a bunch of good in there too but i didn't really mention it. Some of these have bonuses i just wish that flanking an enemy didn't allow a large unit to always stay steadfast. It completely ruins tactics and suddenly it's just big fat units clogging up the fields like saturated fat in somebody's arteries.