The Mighty HK Missile

[hektorreborn]

Played a game Last Sunday with HK Missles on all of my Chimeras. Was very impressed (6 managed to explode one Rhino and Wreck another leaving two berzerker units all the way at the other corner of the table)

Pros-

If put on Chimera, they can usually get shots on side armor.
If a chimera opens a Vehicle LRBTs can kill what pops out.
They are cheap.
I killed a Defiler with one once.
Long range, shoot the damn thing at whatever side armor exposes itself.

Cons-

Half will miss

I dont see many of the posted lists equiped with them and was wondering if there were any other problems with them. I ve just started taking them but have only fought marines or CSM with them so my knowledge is a bit limited.

[emptyhat]

I think most people dislike the price tag given that half will miss.

I'm sure I've seen a thread or two where the consensus was that they'd be pretty nifty if they were cheaper.

The exception is that a few people here back the use of paired outflanking scout sentinels with autocannons and hks.

[RedsandRoyals]

Apr 5, 2012 22:31:55 GMT -5 emptyhat said:

I think most people dislike the price tag given that half will miss.

I'm sure I've seen a thread or two where the consensus was that they'd be pretty nifty if they were cheaper.

This. If they were five points cheaper, I'd slather my tanks with them. As it stands though, I've just got better things to spend the points on than a one nuts missile that won't hit anything half the time.

The problem with that pro vs con list you posted is that almost all of the pros are "ifs" or chance, such as the defiler. The exceptions are them being cheap (which they are compared to, say, an HW team, but they're expensive for what they do), and their range. Contrast that with the cons, Half will miss, and they're one shot, which aren't "ifs" so much as certainties (to the extent a 50% hit ratio can be a certain thing with dice)

Reds

[emptyhat]

The good thing about the Guard dex is that we do have other good stuff to buy instead. I like that stuff like the HK is still an option, you can try and think up interesting tactics where it might be more useful than the traditional stuff.

[egon]

Basically what Reds said. Then again, I wouldn't mind trying them out in say an Apocalypse battle where a hundreds points more or less didn't matter. Still, 100 points is only ten missiles that will only hit half of the time. Five missiles that might do something against >AV12 isn't that good.
Though I've heard some people like using them against certain nid builds.

[Empirespy]

The problem is the cost. For 1 shot with a 50% hit chance it seems over costed, for 5 points less and they become an amazing upgrade, as it's a long range anti transport weapon that for the cost of a melta gun, which statistically hits. It's like a tau disruption pod, almost every competitive tau list has almost all it's vehicles covered in them. Another 5 points for the upgrade, and they would see less use, in this case they are under costed. They may seem over costed, but if they were cheaper they would be under costed.

[hektorreborn]

Hmmm. I guess math does start to lean against them.. Especially if you shoot at the front armor.
AV 12 8%
AV 11 12.5 %
Av 10 16.6%
about the chances each has to imobalize or kill a vehicle. Still, if you get about 6 of them and hit side armor you re up to a 75% idk. I have lots of chimera and 60 pts to spend for my mech list and cant find anything better haha

[WestRider]

I look at it like this: I can buy myself 6 Missile Shots in one of two ways: I can pick up an Infantry Squad with a Missile Launcher, and get an average of 6 shots over the course of a Game, or I can get 6 H-Ks, and distribute those 6 shots over the course of the Game as I wish. The pros and cons of each then look a little different.

Infantry Squad:
- Pros: I get other (scoring) dudes along with the Missile Launcher, doesn't require me to have already purchased Vehicles to upgrade, I have further upgrade options available, Frag shots are an option.
- Cons: Slightly more expensive, the shots get dribbled out over the course of the entire Game.

H-Ks:
- Pros: The big one is the Alpha Strike potential: 6 Missile Shots stopping two Rhinos on Turn One (reasonable odds for this) can have a much bigger impact on the Game than 6 shots that finally manage to stop those Rhinos after they've already got their cargo where it needs to be. Mobility: The H-Ks can Move and Fire to a certain extent. Synergy: H-Ks are generally taken on Platforms that are already at least halfway decent Anti-Transport Units in their own right: Hydras, Sentinels, Chimerae. The Infantry Squad, on the other hand, is often wasting its Lasguns while tossing Krak Missiles at Vehicles.
- Cons: Pretty much the reverse of many of the Infantry Squad's Pros: You have to have the Vehicles already, can't fire Frag, don't get the Lasguns for more Anti-Infantry.

I really find that you need to go big or go home with them. I wouldn't even consider them unless I've got room for at least 6, and sometimes run as many as 10-12 at 2K. You generally also want to slam out as many as possible, as soon as possible, or they do get picked away as your Opponent grinds down your Armour. That one Turn when the wave of Missiles slams home can be Game-changing, tho.

[egon]

For the price of six HKMs you could also get another chimera and then some...

[WestRider]

That assumes you have a Unit around that's not mounted up yet. In an Army where H-Ks are worth considering, that's rarely the case.

And even then, it again comes down to "Is what the H-Ks will do in one Turn worth not having <whatever> around for the whole Game?" Sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't.

But in Mech-dominated 5th Ed, simply writing off the potential of a strong Anti-Transport Alpha Strike without some serious analysis seems overly hasty to me.

[hektorreborn]

The way I look at it, for 90 points you have the firepower of an extra 3 ML teams for a turn. which cant give your opponent a Kill point.

[krasimirova]

As Westrider says, it i s entirely up to your army setup..

Hunterkillers would help in a alpha strike, but in this case the list should always contain as many HK missiles as possible, otherwise it is just the "odd missile" once in a while..

8 - 10 Hunterkillers would be the target to reach if i where to take them.. That way you'd get 4 - 5 missile launcher hits, and against the most common armor AV10 - 12 it would give you between 1.67 (AV12) - 3.33 (AV10) Penetrating hits..

It is a 100 points thou.. And you need 10 units that can take them..

[Rolling Thunder]

If I could crowbar them onto my Valkyries I would. But I value the Rocket Pods more, as my list otherwise has almost no anti-infantry beyond BS4 lasguns and plasmaguns.

[krasimirova]

BTW... Dosn't the Vulture have access to 8 HK missiles..? Not as cool as the Voidraven or BA Raven, but still pretty nifty..

[Rolling Thunder]

Well, I was planning on getting the Punisher Vulture sometime.

[cheminhaler]

I have a HK missile on my one and only transport. I don't think it's a waste of points; if you get two high rolls you can trash some armour with a chimera.

Also the missile itself is a deadly weapon IRL.

[ElegaicRequiem]

Back in 4th, when damaging a vehicle was serious business, AoB shot the treads off a Land Raider with his one and only HK missile. That first act of the first turn won us the game.

It was awesome.

But for IG, they're not worth it with BS3.

[egon]

Apr 12, 2012 10:25:05 GMT -5 cheminhaler said:

I have a HK missile on my one and only transport. I don't think it's a waste of points; if you get two high rolls you can trash some armour with a chimera.

...or you wasted a melta that you can fire six times. Too many ifs in your argument to be a valid point. Like Kras and others have said, you need lots of them be reliable. I've killed squads of terminators with gretchins, doesn't mean that gretchins are the go-to anti-TEQ choice.

Also the missile itself is a deadly weapon IRL.

So is the pocketknife I carry in my backpack all day. What is deadly or effective IRL has very little to do with what is deadly or effective in WH40K. Mainly because the RL equivalent to HKMs hit more than half the time.

[DadCRO]

Apr 12, 2012 10:25:05 GMT -5 cheminhaler said:

Also the missile itself is a deadly weapon IRL.

How does this have any impact on the argument?

[Ymmot (M.I.A)]

I've tried some HK missiles on outflanking sentinels, that seemed like an ok place for them...but I typically do not include them in my lists, I prefer other things.

Apr 12, 2012 18:36:37 GMT -5 DadCRO said:

Apr 12, 2012 10:25:05 GMT -5 cheminhaler said:

Also the missile itself is a deadly weapon IRL.

How does this have any impact on the argument?

and you are contributing how...?

[ElegaicRequiem]

Apr 12, 2012 18:36:37 GMT -5 DadCRO said:

Apr 12, 2012 10:25:05 GMT -5 cheminhaler said:

Also the missile itself is a deadly weapon IRL.

How does this have any impact on the argument?

I'm pretty sure he meant the bit. Not only is it a choking hazard, but you could get some force behind it with a mathhammer.

[DadCRO]

Huh. Anyway, IMO, HKs are sort of a fun option that you can experiment with. Sort of like Ogryns or Lord Commissars.

[hektorreborn]

I think they have the potential to be really useful in mass atleast. I guess it would take a really specific army list for them to work tho because you would need the vehicles to put about 10 or so on already. I wouldnt write them off in the Ogryn level of uselessness tho.

[DadCRO]

Apr 13, 2012 6:08:35 GMT -5 hektorreborn said:

I think they have the potential to be really useful in mass atleast. I guess it would take a really specific army list for them to work tho because you would need the vehicles to put about 10 or so on already. I wouldnt write them off in the Ogryn level of uselessness tho.

It's spelled Though.

[hektorreborn]

Oh is it!? Don't really care tho...