Thousand Sons Advice?

[hektorreborn]

Hey everybody, I have decided to get to work on my much neglected CSM army so as to mix it up from my Imperial Guard. Now, i have 24 Rubric Marines, three sorcerors, a lascannon CCW Dread, and two Rhinos and was unsure where to go next.

Ill come out and say that I do not like obliterators, i was hoping to deal my Long range AT from Predators and Dreads, and doing a Daemon Prince and Sorceror as my HQs. Does that sound like a decent option?

Thanks in advance!

[WestRider]

Unfortunately, Thousand Sons kind of suck right now. They're paying a huge amount of Points for AP3 and a 4+ invul in an Edition where 4+ Cover is everywhere, and then compound that with an even more badly overcosted mandatory Champion. As if that weren't bad enough, they have no access to Special or Heavy Weapons except for one overprice Psychic Power per Squad, forcing the burden of everything but Anti-Infantry even more strongly on your already overworked Support Units.

That's Thousand Sons in general. Then you're planning on exacerbating the problem by leaving out the closest thing to a power Unit that CSM can bring. You can get by without Oblits if the rest of your Army is solid, but if you're building around one of the weakest Troops Choices we've got, you're probably going to want at least one Squad of them.

Let's give it a try, tho.

If you really want to go for it, AutoLas Predators can handle Anti-Transport reasonably well, even if they do pay way too much for it compared to their Imperial counterparts. They tend to die a lot faster than Oblits, tho, since AV13 isn't as tough in 5th Ed as 2 Wounds, a 2+Save, and easy access to Cover.

For Dreads you're probably mostly going to want MultiMeltas, so you have some sort of answer to Heavy Armour. Since the latest FAQ, if you keep them out ahead of the rest of your force, they won't shoot your own dudes if they Fire Frenzy, but they still have a nasty habit of going crazy one way or the other on the Turn that you really need them to accomplish something specific.

Daemon Prince and Sorcerer are both OK choices for HQ, but Points are going to be tight enough that you might want to just stick with one of them. Since Warptime got nerfed, there's really no point in giving either any Power (given the restrictions of the Mark of Tzeentch) except Bolt of Change, which at least brings some more S8 AP1 action.

I'd probably go with something roughly like:
Sorcerer, MoT, Bolt, Meltabombs

2xDread, MultiMelta
Dread, TL Lascannon (because you've already got it)

6 1K Sons, Bolt, Rhino with Combi-Melta
6 1K Sons, Wind of Chaos, Rhino with Combi-Melta
6 1K Sons, Bolt, Rhino with Combi-Flamer

3xPredator, Lascannon Sponsons

That's 1500 on the dot. The Army doesn't scale up terribly well from here, but to take it to 2K, you'd probably be looking at adding another 1K sons Squad, another Sorcerer, and maybe some Raptors with Meltaguns. If it comes out with Points to spare, Havoc Launchers on the Predators wouldn't hurt, to give them a bit of duality.

Wind of Chaos and the Combi-Flamer bring in a little bit more Horde Control, but the general game plan is to hang back at 18" or so in your metal bawkses and plink away, then hope you've whittled them down enough to jump out and Rapid Fire the remnants to death.

[hektorreborn]

Thank ya, I m rather sad at how much these guys cost to bring but I really love the models so im sticking with them. I was thinking about using the Sorcerors in terminator armor as count as obliteratiors, (the models fit my force better) so that could be an option if it becomes too un bearable without them

[Pyrotechnics]

May 10, 2012 21:44:36 GMT -5 hektorreborn said:

Thank ya, I m rather sad at how much these guys cost to bring but I really love the models so im sticking with them. I was thinking about using the Sorcerors in terminator armor as count as obliteratiors, (the models fit my force better) so that could be an option if it becomes too un bearable without them

I'm not much on chaos fluff, but I think that'd work from a modelling perspective. I mean, Tzeentch loves to change things, his sorcerors or champions could probably mutate their arms into weapons (though likely not mechanical ones, likely fleshy and organic-looking, like pink horrors). That way at least you don't have to deal with the rather crap obliterator models.

[akaiyou]

I'm no expert on Tzeentch however from my own play experience I have to agree with everything westrider said about them in the current codex. However I have a different approach to playing them competitively than what he offered you while sticking to your tzeentch theme and NO oblits rule.

Here's my suggested list:
1500 Pts - Chaos Marines Roster

HQ:
. . 1 Daemon Prince, 175 pts (Wings; Mark of Tzeentch; Bolt of Change x1)

Elite:
. . 1 Dreadnought, 140 pts (Extra Armor; Dreadnought CCW; Twin-Linked Lascannon)

Troops:
. . 5 Thousand Sons, 245 pts (Bolter x5)
. . . . 1 Aspiring Sorcerer (Bolt Pistol; Force Weapon; Bolt of Change)
. . . . 1 Rhino (Combi-weapon of your choice)

. . 5 Thousand Sons, 245 pts (Bolter x5)
. . . . 1 Aspiring Sorcerer (Bolt Pistol; Force Weapon; Bolt of Change)
. . . . 1 Rhino (Combi-weapon of your choice)

. . 5 Thousand Sons, 245 pts (Bolter x5)
. . . . 1 Aspiring Sorcerer (Bolt Pistol; Force Weapon; Bolt of Change)
. . . . 1 Rhino (Combi-weapon of your choice)

Heavy Support:
. . 1 Defiler, 150 pts (2x Dreadnought CCWs; Battle Cannon; Close Combat Arm; Close Combat Arm)
. . 1 Defiler, 150 pts (2x Dreadnought CCWs; Battle Cannon; Close Combat Arm; Close Combat Arm)
. . 1 Defiler, 150 pts (2x Dreadnought CCWs; Battle Cannon; Close Combat Arm; Close Combat Arm)

Total Roster Cost: 1500

Reasons why?

1. Daemon Princes > Sorcerors. The Daemon Princes are the best HQ choice in the current codex and taking a winged one with bolt of tzeentch really helps you chase down fast transports in a rather slow moving army.

2. Speaking of slow moving...Troops. They are expensive and overcosted so why spend more points than you have to on the thousand sons? The best way to look at them is as extra bolt of tzeentchs to toss at the enemy they really wont do much against infantry so no point in focusing them on larger units that you can't afford.

3. Rhinos with combi weapons help play a couple games and decide on which combi weapon suits your metagame best. I would stay go with combi melta by default and if you face down loads of hordes switch to flamers or plasma if you are facing a lot of terminator based armies.

4. The dreadnought i really did NOT want to put in but i did since u seem to really want to use it and with just the lascannon it should be fine but the goal is to keep him moving taking shots only when necessary and just try to engage him in some combat with something that can't kill it and enjoy. Speaking of which...

5. Defilers baby! They are the backbone of this army, battlecannons will make MEQ cry and seriously help against hordes which is something that Predators won't help you with at all. Which is one of the problems that I noticed in Westrider's suggestion which he tried to remedy via winds of chaos and combi-flamers but IMO winds of chaos sucks and is expensive for no reason and follows 4th ed rules for damaging mobs with a template while being short range as well just makes BoT that much more appealing on those troop choices. With that said defilers will chow down any kind of infantry including terminators if you make sure to assault with multiple defilers due to them having close combat arms to add to their attack count putting out 6 attacks each on the charge.

You should keep these guys moving and always trying to engage in combat only slowing down to battlecannon something that's just too juicy not to. They can also support the dreadnought in an assault since he can easily get bogged down against tarpit units.

I say try it out and see what happens, i'm mostly theory hammering here on the defilers as I don't own any and most people ive seen use them like to sit back and battle cannon all day where as i would do the opposite and only batltecannon when the best possible situation arises.

Their FLEET special rule is not to be overlooked IMO.

[WestRider]

If your problem with Obliterators is the Models, not the Concept, I highly recommend converting some Sorcerers into something that looks like it could fit. My Oblits are all AoBR Terminators converted with Possessed parts to look like Terminator Sorcerers. Never had a problem with people accepting them.

Akaiyou makes some very valid points there, and that looks like a pretty solid list he's put together as well. Note that I'm also mostly theory-hammering here as well, so let me lay out some of why I made the differing choices in my List.
- Daemon Prince Vs. Sorcerer: I find Daemon Princes just die too fast. MoT helps, but they're still big scary Models that draw a lot of attention and fire to themselves. This gets exacerbated when you've just got one and it's clearly the fastest threat in your list.
- Extra Troops Models: Just burning up Points. I couldn't really think of much worthwhile to do with 69 Points in a Chaos List. Maybe throw on some Extra Armour/Daemonic Possession/Havoc Racks instead. Actually, Havocs on the Predators would provide some extra Horde Control as well.
- Breath of Chaos: Just a clarification, Templates work exactly the same in 5th as they did in 4th. Only Blasts changed. Winds is overcosted, but it's still a Poisoned (4+) Flamer that ignores Armour Saves, so it's not quite that bad.
- Defilers: The real difference in the two Armies. I haven't had a whole lot of experience with them, and I've certainly never run (or gone up against) three at once, but they've always seemed pretty fragile and ineffective for their cost, even by the standards of the Chaos Dex. They're high priority Targets that have trouble finding Cover, and they mostly just seem to get shot up before they do much. Having three helps with redundancy, but exacerbates the problem of finding Cover for them all.

Again, this is almost all theoryhammer, so play with it for a while, see what actually works on the Table.

[hektorreborn]

Thanks everyone, I think ill get in a few games and see how things go. Just picked up another daemon prince and four sorcerors who will serve as obliterators and one of the Aobr dreads (it only cost $.99) so ill have to see how that works out. My friend has some defilers so akaiyou ill try your list out when he returns from school. Might be fun to run 2 princes, three CC dreads, and 3 defilers and just go for the Godzilla approach.

[akaiyou]

Some counter points -

1. Daemon Prince usually gets shot up when there's nothing else more menacing. DPs are fire magnets but that's actually a good thing, your opponent will WANT to shoot him so use that to ur advantage run him right next to ur defilers the defiles can keep up thanks to fleet if ther'es anythin within assault range. and the dreadnought can follow along right next to them

make the opponetn think 'what the hell do i shoot at first? the dreadnought, defilers or dp...or those 3 rhinos coming up right behind them with bolt of tzeentch and ap 3 bolters!

For the point costs the dp is the best value in HQs just compare them point for point and in stats.

2. Defilers as mentioned before usually get taken down cuz people arent bringing many of them or giving the opponent the pressure of forcing him to decide between targets.

I dont own any defilers myself but ive played plenty ppl with them they usually bring one, maybe two and they split them usually in an effort to target diff parts of the table and then they just sit back there and shoot. I think thats their mistake

Cuz then i never have to worry bout that thing getting in my face and assaulting me and lets face it a big bad S8 AP3 blast isnt scary in 4th edition with so much 4+ cover around. I think to truly play a defiler to it's strenghs u need to rusht hem forward with other similar units and force the opponent to break his lines or suffer the consequences. Only stopping to shoot when there's a mob that u need or really want to take down that you arent close enough to just asasult.

[WestRider]

Overwhelming target priority for the DP is a less reliable way of getting resilience than the Sorcerer's solution, which is to not be targetable at all until you crack a Rhino and dig through a half-dozen dudes with 3+/4++. Takes little more Firepower to drop the DP than it does just to pop that Rhino, let alone cut through the ablative dudes afterward.

If the DP gets gunned down before he makes Assault, he's basically just a BS5 Bolt of Change, which is exactly what the Sorcerer brings for 20 Points less.

And 4 AV12 and 3 AV11 Hulls plus a single MC isn't exactly a lot of Target Saturation at this point in 5th, either. There are plenty of Lists that are putting out 10+ AV12 Hulls at 1500, and as a result, there are a lot of Lists packing 15+ Krak Missiles per Turn at 1500 Points, most of which have some fast Melta available as well.

DeathWing and DraigoWing, in particular, seem like they would give your version a harder time, since you've only got the four Bolts and the Lascannon for ranged AP1-2, while I've got another 6 Lascannon hanging around on AV13 platforms that can pick up Cover more easily than the Defilers.

[knight (M.I.A)]

Ok time to get on the hate lists of everyone again but a few basic rules about Rhinos and Predators...
First of all Rhinos are just there for 2 reasons. Transporting and blocking line of sight and there is a chance it won't even survive long enough to bring in the troops. So everything but a "naked" Rhino is a waste of points since after the first shot you have spent a lot of points on a combi weapon that is now just a plain and simple bolter. And like I said most of the time it won't even fire that one shot.

Predators are horribly overpriced for Chaos already and then giving it mixed weapons is a sin to start with. Our Predator is in a personality crisis due to being less of an option in what it does due to the Obliterators, no need to give it more reasons for personality crisis by mixing weapons. Specialisation is the key for us, either go Anti Infantry or Anti Tank, but don't try both at the same time. Either the lascannons are a waste on let's say Guardsmen or the Heavy Bolters on the front of a Leman Russ

[akaiyou]

May 12, 2012 0:58:41 GMT -5 WestRider said:

Overwhelming target priority for the DP is a less reliable way of getting resilience than the Sorcerer's solution, which is to not be targetable at all until you crack a Rhino and dig through a half-dozen dudes with 3+/4++. Takes little more Firepower to drop the DP than it does just to pop that Rhino, let alone cut through the ablative dudes afterward.

If the DP gets gunned down before he makes Assault, he's basically just a BS5 Bolt of Change, which is exactly what the Sorcerer brings for 20 Points less.

And 4 AV12 and 3 AV11 Hulls plus a single MC isn't exactly a lot of Target Saturation at this point in 5th, either. There are plenty of Lists that are putting out 10+ AV12 Hulls at 1500, and as a result, there are a lot of Lists packing 15+ Krak Missiles per Turn at 1500 Points, most of which have some fast Melta available as well.

DeathWing and DraigoWing, in particular, seem like they would give your version a harder time, since you've only got the four Bolts and the Lascannon for ranged AP1-2, while I've got another 6 Lascannon hanging around on AV13 platforms that can pick up Cover more easily than the Defilers.

Ok fair enough let's mathhammer this out then and compare our ideas based on the numbers are pure logic.

Daemon Prince (Mark of Tzeentch + BoT,Wings) vs Sorcerer (Mark of Tzeentch + BoT)

175 pts vs 155pts

DP
Pros
+ 2 Weapon Skill
+ 2 Strength
+ 1 Toughness
+ 1 Wounds
+ Jump Infantry
+ Monstrous Creature
+ Fearless
+ Eternal Warrior

Cons
High Priority Target

Sorcerer
Pros
20 Pts cheaper
Independent Character

Cons
Everything else not listed in the Daemon Prince's Pros....thats a long list.

Clearly on a 1 v 1 the daemon prince is MILES better than the sorcerer, I mean just look at the statline and the special rules..you get ALL that for just 20 pts more. I know Armies that pay 20 pts for just 1/3 of that if even. Hell open up a Tau codex and it's quite clear we got the sweetest deal in HQs around in terms of cost effectiveness vs other HQs in same codex.

So you're reliant on the sorcerer IC status to declare him the clear winner here? I beg to differ the math simply does NOT support that IC is suddenly worth all of those pros listed in the DP's entry.

Hiding inside a AV 11 Rhino that is SO easily cracked open as you yourself mentioned due to the over abunance of AT weaponry in 5th edition is not making the sorcerer more survivable. The rhino can be wrecked turn 1 and then you are stranded with a completely useless sorcerer...

He's attached to a SLOW AND PURPOSEFUL unit so moves as if in DT all game long and lord pray that aspiring sorcerer doesn't die. Which considering how small those units of thousands sons are...any imperial guard army can crack open that rhino and then shoot a big blast that'll make everyone in the unit take a save and then what? They all save on 3s and the sorcerer is NOT an eternal warrior will his 4+ save him reliably?

Eternal Warrior is golden. Toughness 5 is golden. The daemon prince has that small arms fire wont likely take down the daemon prince before he gets in your face, he has 4 inv save so he can just go out there in the open he doesnt need cover saves and with 18" threat range he should be in assault with something in just 2 turns.

Killing a daemon prince is no easy task the opponent will have to dedicate a large portion of his fire to take 1 out, and if you give target saturation by running a bunch of defilers next to it the numbers prove that the DP will live longer due to the risk of having those defilers make it through. Since they can also assault turn 2.

Also one last thign to point out is that your theory is that the sorcerer is cheaper yet you seem to require a rhino and a squad purchased in order to claim survivability. The daemon prince is fine on it's own. And he'll he can even deep strike or easily jump behind terrain that BLOS to survive and then be able to jump out and reach something with a BS 5 36" threat range BoT....

The numbers don't add up when we use your own logic, in your suggested list you have 3 Dreads, 3 Rhinos and 3 Predators. Which is an effective amount of armor no doubt...but

You said armies are packing heat nowadays right? Able to drop 15 krak missiles per turn 48" range rendering half your army basically useless at range in most deployments. The multimetas and BoTs have a 30" threat only in your list so lets say you are facing a smart player, what do you think he'll do?

He'll snipe out your 48" range stuff sitting at the back of course! 15 krak missiles we can agree should be enough to punch a hole in those predators turn 1 since they are the ONLY threat early on. I'm not even counting cover for the predators because while it IS easier to get cover saves for a predator than a defiler, given the nature of how cover works for vehicles it means your predator will either NOT be shooting at all that turn or only able to shoot one weapon due to having to move for the cover save to position itself or because half of it's LoS will be blocked due to i'm guessin a large structure of some kind infront of it to provide that cover.

As someone that used to run 2 predators prior to switching to Oblits I can testify to the fact that AC+Las preds work but I am in agreeance with knight who posted above that they are over priced in the chaos dex and that they can be taken down just as easily in the current meta predators do NOT live longer than defilers because they are high priority targets aswell. Your list has no saturation in the early turns of the game the choice is clear...take out those preds! Also remember...side shots are not that hard to get you don't have AV 13 all around.

So mathematically Defilers being 12 front and side are just as durable as Predators that are 13 front and 11 side without the positioning being a huge factor.

So compare

Defiler
Pros
AV 12 front and side
Daemonic Possession
Fleet
Walker
Dual Role (Anti Infantry/Anti Vehicle)
72" threat range...NOTHING is too far away...ever!

Cons
Large target.
Hard to gain Cover
AV 12 is far from impervious

Predator
Pros
20 pts cheaper
AV 13 front
Stronger Anti Tank

Cons
AV 11 side
High Priority Target
Spoonsons create annoying positioning issues
Useless versus mobs/infantry

Realitically speaking the defiler offers MORE options than a predator. For only 20 more points you can't be shaken/stunned and you can assault. While still retaining good anti tank power (S8 ordenance IS as good as a lascannon shot) and that same battlecannon can be shot at infantry to deal with mobs. Armament destroyed results render a predator useless, even with losing the battlecannon or a DDCW the defiler is still a threat to both tanks and infantry in assault.

You can hide a defiler in an assault! to protect it from shooting for a couple turns that's a big bonus of being a walker. And due to it's statline most units you assault will have a hard time dealing with it if they are able to handle it at all.

Again I don't own any actual Defilers but I have faced them and I know their rules and they are pretty solid IMO

I have used predators extensively and thus i know how fragile they truly are in 5th edition. Specially with nothing else being a threat early on in the army.

I have used both daemon princes and sorcerer HQs...and the Daemon Prince is superior by FAR in just about every aspect. That fact to me is undeniable just by looking at the numbers comparison, the price, statline and special rules.

A winged prince with bolt can deep strike in dawn of war/spearhead deployment to make up for the longer walk, offer a sudden big threat on a flank and drop a transport while he's at it with little fear of small arms fire.