|
Post by kobracommander on Jul 4, 2012 11:26:46 GMT -5
How so? Because of Hull Points? I tell you what, if my chimera gets shot at three times, chances are its dead anyway. Why worry about the damn hull points. Personally I think its made mech that much stronger, as the opponent no longer has the ability to go. "Crap, I glanced, well at least that battlecannon wont be shooting at me next turn."
Can someone please explain this other line of thinking to me, because frankly I don't see it. You may have to be more careful with your vehicles, but everyone's is just as equally fragile.
|
|
|
Post by majorspeirs on Jul 4, 2012 17:46:43 GMT -5
I have been pondering this myself. I think it is more of a case of infantry lists are now stronger and more competitive, as opposed to mech lists being weaker.
One important factor that must now be considered for mech lists is that units in transports cannot claim or contest objectives - the troop unit must be disembarked. Furthermore, vehicles cannot even contest objectives.
|
|
|
Post by treadiculous on Jul 4, 2012 18:10:17 GMT -5
You have a fair point there kobra, though I feel that vehicles are weaker on the basis of these factors:
1) Blasts are now full strength regardless of centre hole 2) 3 glancing hits will definetly kill a Chimera, where before it was a possibility 3) Fast vehicles are much easier to hit in assaults 4) Moving and firing heavy weapons will probably mean more hits (if only very slightly more) 5) Vehicles are faster, proably putting them closer to assault units of the opposition (admitedly, if a transport has got the unit into position it has done its job - but does mean the opposition can transport their troops closer too)
I really need to play a few games to really see what is the difference, and I do see you're point.. glancing hits could effectivly wreck a tank for 1 turn with a stunned roll, and then do the same again next turn.. now that the hits have to add up it means it just soaks up the damage til it finally gives in (unless a penentrating hit is scored obviously).
the points majorspeirs makes also help illustrate why mech is less well off...
also add that a fortification will give great line of sight for the models inside it.
On the otherhand..
1) mech did get faster 2) can shoot more guns 3) still is a cheap and effective way to up grade units with heavy weapons and mobility
I guess over the next few weeks / months we'll really begin to see where the balance lies.
|
|
|
Post by WestRider on Jul 4, 2012 18:21:00 GMT -5
When people are saying Mech is dead, they're specifically referring to Armies where everything is mounted in Transports. Gun Tanks inarguable got better in 6th, it's the Transport part of the equation that got nerfed: 1) Units in Transports can no longer Claim or Contest Objectives. 2) Units can now only Disembark from Transports that moved 6" or less. Their movement distance after Disembarking was reduced by ~3". They can never Assault on the Turn they disembark*, not even if the Vehicle stays stationary, and I don't think they can even Run on the same Turn. 3) Because a lot more Units can kill Vehicles reliably in Assaults, and the odds are much greater of a Wreck result than an Explosion, it's considerably easier to surround a Transport and take the Unit inside out at the same time.
There are probably a few more factors as well, but those are off the top of my head.
*Unless it was an Assault Vehicle like a Land Raider. Possibly also Open Topped, I haven't seen one way or the other.
|
|
|
Post by lordflashlight on Jul 4, 2012 21:14:25 GMT -5
While what the Major says is correct, there is always the chance with 6th that fast attack or heavy support choices will be scoring. That includes vehicles...... scoring vendetta ftw...
|
|
|
Post by WestRider on Jul 4, 2012 22:12:29 GMT -5
While what the Major says is correct, there is always the chance with 6th that fast attack or heavy support choices will be scoring. That includes vehicles...... scoring vendetta ftw... Why are you talking about chance at this point? The Rulebook has been out for several days now. There is one Mission out of 6 where FA choices are Scoring, and one where HS choices are Scoring. I believe in both of those, the relevant choice gives up VPs for killing them off as well, but I'm not sure about that. That said, Vendettas are usually incapable of Claiming Objectives, because it specifically says to measure to the Hull for that purpose, and you need to be within 3".
|
|
|
Post by kobracommander on Jul 5, 2012 0:13:02 GMT -5
All valid points, but I think guard got the better end of the stick. I never assault once outside a chimera...usually my guys just die. So the negative there is moot. Now when I move 6 my plasmaguns can still fire at a full 24" if need be. I think if anything the new rules increased a lot of the threat g'men in a can, can generate. That being said the only thing I can see changing would possibly be taking grenadiers if I were playing with vets, (which would be why I would have be using a lot of chimera's anyway) since I would need for them to be outside their box more of the game then they used to be.
|
|
|
Post by Rommel44 on Jul 9, 2012 17:58:08 GMT -5
At the moment I have been currently running a Mechanized Chimera heavy list as not only does it fit my Steel Legions fluff, but it has proven to be a still effective list so far in this edition. Chimeras still give you the oppurtunity to unleash a ton of firepower against opponents, on top of being able to still fire weapons from the top hatch. Mechanized lists with Veteran Squads in Chimeras are still very effective, all thats changed is some of the rules and maybe some tweaks to our strategy when using them.
|
|
|
Post by TheHoboHunter on Jul 11, 2012 2:49:24 GMT -5
Your enemy still needs to actually equal your AV to hurt you. Chances are, if they want a tank gone, they're hitting it with something overkill like a 3x melta vet squad, or some UBERDEATHSTAR close-combat mahreens of some description. To me it makes no functional difference if the squad's packing 2 meltas or 10, because by that point the vehicle's a write-off anyway. The only time I've seen this not the case in all 3 games yet has been a pair of Heavy Bolter teams winging a Stormraven with 3 hits/3 glances, and that sort of 'lucky shot' is hardly a 6e symptom.
Like the others said, I'm more interested in how transporting assault units got nerfed than anything else.
|
|
|
Post by kobracommander on Jul 11, 2012 9:44:13 GMT -5
Indeed, I'm interested to see how assaulty marines like Spacewolves fair without the easy access to assault vehicles, now that they can't just get out and assault.
|
|
|
Post by TheHoboHunter on Jul 11, 2012 11:15:22 GMT -5
For what it's worth, the one game out of three I played so far that I won, I took out the enemy's rhino (not exactly difficult to drop 1 transport with 1000pts of IG).
The transported squad (about 1/3 of his force, the others being a drop-pod tac squad and an assault squad) spent the entire game hiding behind their ruined tank, trading half-assed bolter fire with 20 angry guardsmen in cover because they couldn't risk peeking out too much. Conversely, his assault squad tried that and got pasted something fierce. So, I guess it reminded me a bit of 3rd/4th ed 40k, where it was all 'Autocannons vs Rhino Rush' all over again.
Simple enough stuff for a Guard army. But I'm still bringing 2 LRBTs AT LEAST in any game 1000pts or higher, because I often rely on that ordnance to remove things by the unit. They still have to breach my AV14 to deal with me.
It'll be fun to see how I go against actual infantry-heavy armies for empirical study; even most of the ork stuff I saw last edition with my friends were heavily mechanised.
|
|
|
Post by WestRider on Jul 11, 2012 23:20:42 GMT -5
The only time I've seen this not the case in all 3 games yet has been a pair of Heavy Bolter teams winging a Stormraven with 3 hits/3 glances, and that sort of 'lucky shot' is hardly a 6e symptom. I'm curious as to how S5 Heavy Bolters managed to do anything to an AV12 Storm Raven. Or did you mean Storm Talon? In my one Game so far, it was all about Glancing things apart with Autocannon and Plasma fire. I did blow up one Rhino with a Demolisher Cannon, but I think mid-strength high RoF weaponry is going to become very common in 6th, while the amount of Melta and other really heavy hitters drops.
|
|
|
Post by TheHoboHunter on Jul 12, 2012 2:05:42 GMT -5
Must've been a Storm Talon then. If it helps, it had a TL Assault Cannon on the front and some air-to-air missiles on the wings; my opponent said it was Front AV11 so I fired a blob of infantry at it with no better targets. 3 sixes to hit, 3 sixes to damage, and it was blown out of the sky in a turn.
I agree on seeing more mid-strength stuff, and I know for a fact I'm looking more at plasma delivery than melta. But to me I'm approaching it from less of a 'glance it to death' point, and more that the things that DO need to hunt vehicles in my lists are usually mobile, like deep-striking stormtroopers or mechanised vets.
I figure if I can see your Rear AV10, I'm better off firing twice as much plasma into it as I am melta. Hitting is what's risky for my IG, not the actual damage.
|
|
|
Post by DadCRO on Jul 12, 2012 17:39:38 GMT -5
Maybe Stormies will be more viable now.
|
|
|
Post by Deathkorpsman on Jul 12, 2012 20:38:16 GMT -5
Storm Troopers look about as viable now as they were in 5th, with a few areas where they have improved slightly. The Rapid Fire change makes them slightly better with single shots, and slightly worse with double shots so that change is a mixed bag. Cover being scaled back a bit makes armor saves somewhat more important, especially for objectives sitting in the open. This makes Storm Troopers more viable as an objective denial unit than they were previously, IMO. They are also still OK at what they were already OK at, which is delivering special weapons where they are needed most for ninja killing stuff. If there was a way for Guard to make them a scoring unit, or they cost significantly less, I'd re-evaluate my opinion of them.
|
|
|
Post by commisarblur on Aug 5, 2012 19:38:08 GMT -5
How so? Because of Hull Points? I tell you what, if my chimera gets shot at three times, chances are its dead anyway. Why worry about the damn hull points. Personally I think its made mech that much stronger, as the opponent no longer has the ability to go. "Crap, I glanced, well at least that battlecannon wont be shooting at me next turn." Can someone please explain this other line of thinking to me, because frankly I don't see it. You may have to be more careful with your vehicles, but everyone's is just as equally fragile. Its not simply getting hit causes haul point damage, its from glances and the like. See if you get hit but the enemy dice fail to match or exceed your av then you take no damage. So in an sense it means bettered armored vechicals are going to be harder to kill in a sense unless your facing a melta. Then your screwed if that thing rolls a 6.
|
|
|
Post by treadiculous on Aug 7, 2012 6:35:09 GMT -5
The event that made me notice that Mech is more fragile is when a large blast scattered and hit the rear facing of the tank (emptyhat's battlewagon). Due to the change to blast this meant he took a full strength hit.. and I got lucky with the dice gods and open topped.
Elsewhere the new rules didn't seem to have effected much, 2 of my looted wagons got glanced to death by stuff, but since they had 1 gun it is quite feasable 3 glancing hits would have wrecked them in the old rules too.
It is nice not haivng to roll on the damage table for glances, speeding play slightly and maintaining maximum damage output during your own turn.
Vehicles move faster in the turn they aren't disembarking, and move slower in the turn they are disembarking, this seems better in the sense that even if the vehicle gets destroyed it has got its cargo closer than it used too. (I need to check this as a unit forced to disembark may be prevented from assaulting in the following turn - bad for Orks but fine for shooty units).
Jury's still out if they are worse, I think its more that everything else got brought up to balance with Mech now.
|
|
tonba
Guardsman
Posts: 60
|
Post by tonba on Aug 8, 2012 20:56:37 GMT -5
Your playing wrong then.
Even if you scatter, the bLast isn't counted as coming from the centre of the template unless it is barrage.. The blast always hits the closest armour face to the firer.
|
|
|
Post by Deathkorpsman on Aug 9, 2012 2:21:30 GMT -5
Your playing wrong then. Even if you scatter, the bLast isn't counted as coming from the centre of the template unless it is barrage.. The blast always hits the closest armour face to the firer. The firer may have been in the rear arc and targeting a different unit, so the scenario trediculous posted above is quite possible without misusing the rules. You are quite right though that blasts (except Barrage) use the vehicle facing of the firer. As for the revamp of mech, I plan on trying out a few mostly foot and Ven lists for a bit to see how they feel. I might start phasing vehicles back in some, but from what I've been hearing around my gaming community I don't think that is very likely. A heavy Chimera/Valk/Ven mech list sounds like it might still be OK for guard, since chimeras are so cheap and flyers are still a bit hard to kill, but Leman Russes seem to be a mixed bag. They can potentially fire more often than they used to, but opponents are more likely to keep shooting one till it dies now instead of settling for a shaken. There's lots of things I can do with a shaken tank, but only one thing I can use a wreck for (cover). Our other vehicles likewise suffered a bit, so an all-vehicle list, while neat looking on the table, isn't as strong as it used to be. I think that siege lists (heavy artillery + footslog) might be much stronger than they've been in the past, with the changes to blasts and vehicles especially. In any case, mech guard is not weak. Like other posters stated before, it seems to have just been dropped a few pegs to be more in line with lists that can't go, or don't happen to be, mech. This is not an altogether bad thing, it just requires some strategic thinking and changing of ways (get off my lawn you filthy vandals!).
|
|
|
Post by treadiculous on Aug 13, 2012 4:33:25 GMT -5
tonba - yup, you are right here, we were playing the rules wrong since it was a boom kannon.
Having played a few games (vs Empty) of Ork vs Guard with a healthy amount of chimera I would say that mech is still very effective, the chimera is an excellent tank as it has 2 heavy weapons, decent front armour and 5 weapons can be fired from hatch...
What we did discover is that with out any AA firepower these mobile pill boxes are very easy to take out with flyers (Dakkajets) since they can get into position for side and rear armour shots.
We also found that Leman Russ are just as susceptable, but if they hug the table edge then their rear armour is impossible to target. That said, they are still the tough old beasts of old for the ground forces so against non-flyer lists they will do as well as before.
A Hydra or Aegeis with Quad Gun seem to be quite important if you suspect a flyer amongst your opponents force, as reliance on weight of snap fire is not a reliable method.
I haven't played with my Valkyrie / Vendetta yet, but I reckon they'll be deadly (AV12 will be a huge issue)... and if we can Grav Chute while zooming then the Guard will have very powerful air cav... the troops air dropped will only need to survive and cling to an objective - the fight will be won in the skies. (unless they have AA.. in which case the fight will end in a shower of burning debris).
|
|
|
Post by commisarblur on Aug 13, 2012 11:18:28 GMT -5
tonba - yup, you are right here, we were playing the rules wrong since it was a boom kannon. Having played a few games (vs Empty) of Ork vs Guard with a healthy amount of chimera I would say that mech is still very effective, the chimera is an excellent tank as it has 2 heavy weapons, decent front armour and 5 weapons can be fired from hatch... What we did discover is that with out any AA firepower these mobile pill boxes are very easy to take out with flyers (Dakkajets) since they can get into position for side and rear armour shots. We also found that Leman Russ are just as susceptable, but if they hug the table edge then their rear armour is impossible to target. That said, they are still the tough old beasts of old for the ground forces so against non-flyer lists they will do as well as before. A Hydra or Aegeis with Quad Gun seem to be quite important if you suspect a flyer amongst your opponents force, as reliance on weight of snap fire is not a reliable method. I haven't played with my Valkyrie / Vendetta yet, but I reckon they'll be deadly (AV12 will be a huge issue)... and if we can Grav Chute while zooming then the Guard will have very powerful air cav... the troops air dropped will only need to survive and cling to an objective - the fight will be won in the skies. (unless they have AA.. in which case the fight will end in a shower of burning debris). I've played three games so far with my valk and I can say with confidence that flyers are now gonna be the sheeeet. Aside from that one time a dred hit me with his snap shot multi melta, I can fly my transport near enemy vehciles without worrying about being shot down. You should still play with some caution but in the near future You may start seeing mechianzed guard with full squads of Valks on the field.
|
|
tonba
Guardsman
Posts: 60
|
Post by tonba on Aug 14, 2012 20:58:26 GMT -5
^ Flyers are going to dominate.. UNTIL the 6th ed codex's are released.. Then expect to see Anti-Aircraft Galore.
Manticores will be able to take AA missiles, instead of thier regular payload, same with whirlwinds. Basically anything with a missile launcher will get flakk missiles for a price. So expect to get shotdown alot more often...
|
|
|
Post by dangerrod on Aug 15, 2012 9:36:18 GMT -5
^ Flyers are going to dominate.. UNTIL the 6th ed codex's are released.. Then expect to see Anti-Aircraft Galore. Manticores will be able to take AA missiles, instead of thier regular payload, same with whirlwinds. Basically anything with a missile launcher will get flakk missiles for a price. So expect to get shotdown alot more often... Have a look at FW's Hydra and Manticore platforms, the Hydra gains the Interceptor USR and the Manticore gains Skyfire (or something similar) and also re-rolls to hit flyers If we get to use them in everyday/tournament gaming, they will freaking awesome!
|
|
tonba
Guardsman
Posts: 60
|
Post by tonba on Aug 15, 2012 19:32:45 GMT -5
No doubt it will happen eventually.
GW will be making a MINT with all these people buying up flyers, then the 6th ed codex's will come out, and Anti-Aircraft weapons will be galore, so people will need to buy them. Its all money making.
At the end of the day, foot sluggers and armour of the 'guard will dominate. lol
|
|
|
Post by krasimirova on Aug 16, 2012 6:22:55 GMT -5
Regarding Flyers being brutal: www.frontlinegaming.org/2012/08/14/nsfw-necrons-vs-space-wolves-2000pts/Now as it says in the link it is a bit NSFW and quite immature at some points, but if you shave away all the trash talk and silliness it shows quite well what flyers a capable of.. Then again frontlinegaming has always been using rock hard competitive lists, so this shouldn't be any different.. In the games i have played againt flyers (max 3 at the moment) none dedicated anti air firepower has been enough to bring them down.. Or i've been able to out manuver them.. Or simply ignore them and go for the mission.. Twin-linking your weapons with orders or using Vendettas is ASAIK the way to go at the moment.. (If you arn't bringing Quad guns or hydras ofc that is.. ) Kras
|
|