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Post by sgtsamvimes on Aug 1, 2012 22:19:51 GMT -5
So, it seems to me that the warlord traits are something that requires a bit of thought. Since they're random, you kinda have to plan on the spot, and a lot of them aren't very useful to command squads that want to stay out of fights and issue orders. Then it dawned on me: WarLord Commissar rolling personal traits.
Staying in Personal traits, there are numerous advantages this badass officer can grant to blob guardsmen, lets go down the chart: He is an IC so he can deploy for whatever he rolls easier than a CCS
1. Counter-attack in deployment zone. stick him in a unit holding back, pretty much what he was going to do anyway in a blob. Useful!
2. Furious Charge in enemy deployent. The opposite! attach him to charging vets, or blobs, anyone who is going to charge later in the game. Useful!
3. Outflank. Giving a unit outflank is amazing, needless to say. Stick a Chimera of Ogryns in reserve... Useful!
4. 1VP for every character slain in challenges. Well, challenges happen, and he is your best character. He might as well Power Axe through and try to kill the challenger. at this point you may already be dead, but VP is VP... mildly Useful!
5. Feel no pain near objectives. This is amazing for blobsmen, since they can spread out to be near almost any objective. note that you dont need to control the objective, just be near it. SUPER USEFUL!
6. Score! Attach him to a non-scoring unit at a critical moment to control an objective! Mega Useful!
In short, most of the utility of the personal warlord traits comes if you can give them to an IC and attach him around where needed, based on what you rolled. The other 2 charts dont look very appealing, but with his Look Out, Sir ability and IC status the personal traits + the commissar Lord make for a very flexible use of the inevitable random roll of Warlord.
thoughts?
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Post by WestRider on Aug 1, 2012 22:33:31 GMT -5
Those are excellent points. I'll have to keep them in mind when I'm running my LC.
Semi-random question, tho: Why'd you give yours a Power Weapon? He's one of the few Models in the Army that can take a Fist, and for just 5 more Points, it's a steal.
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Post by Jackal-0311 on Aug 1, 2012 23:02:49 GMT -5
So...can, said warlord be attached to a sly ST squad?
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Post by commisarblur on Aug 1, 2012 23:07:40 GMT -5
Warlord Lord commissars in my opinion are one of the best ways to go. Since I started using one i've seen my game improve. L. Commy with a twenty man blob of guards makes a steady vanguard to taking objectives.
Answer to WestRider: That powerfist may seem useful but you must remeber that it gives your toon an intiative of 1 so your always going to strike last whereas the PW may give you an extra attack. 2 base attacks+ 1pw+ Charge into assault= Four chances to hit and wound.
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Post by magot on Aug 2, 2012 0:19:15 GMT -5
thank you Sam, these are very use full thoughts. esspecially for me as a non English guy, it helps to read and understand this kind of explanations and thoughts. I will give it a try for sure
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Post by krasimirova on Aug 2, 2012 3:37:16 GMT -5
IMO the logic behind many of your points is a bit flawed..
First of all the LC is a kill point, ontop of that if he is your Warlord he is 1 Killpoint AND a victory point.. All on a T3 model that can get insta gibbed..:/
1. Counter-attack in deployment zone. stick him in a unit holding back, pretty much what he was going to do anyway in a blob. Useful!
Yes this is useful, but it is easier and more reliably given by attaching a wolf guard terminator to your blob squad, that way you also have a 2+ armor 2+ look out sir character that can soak some wounds.. And this way you don't have to stick in your own deployment zone..
2. Furious Charge in enemy deployent. The opposite! attach him to charging vets, or blobs, anyone who is going to charge later in the game. Useful!
Problem is, with the speed (or lack of) in the blob squad you most likely will get charged or will be to slow to actually make it to the enemy board edge.. But yes, if you make it there it will be a okay rule.. Too bad they nerfed the Furious Charge USR..
3. Outflank. Giving a unit outflank is amazing, needless to say. Stick a Chimera of Ogryns in reserve... Useful!
So for this to work (1 in 6 chance), you are bringing ogryns in a chimera (minimum cost 185 points) ogryns really arn't very good in CC, yes they are stubborn and will beat face against 5+ guys, but against MEQ's they really struggle.. Mainly because of the lack of powerweapon options on the bone'ead.. I would think that giving a scoring unit outflank would be more advisable..
4. 1VP for every character slain in challenges. Well, challenges happen, and he is your best character. He might as well Power Axe through and try to kill the challenger. at this point you may already be dead, but VP is VP... mildly Useful!
Power axe or fist, he is I1 and T3, any challenger worth his salt will beat him up quite badly, so yes he might kill of a SM sgt, but most challengers with S6+ will cost you your warlord..
5. Feel no pain near objectives. This is amazing for blobsmen, since they can spread out to be near almost any objective. note that you dont need to control the objective, just be near it. SUPER USEFUL!
This is correct.. FNP is good on objective huggers, but again the T3 is a bit mehh..:/
6. Score! Attach him to a non-scoring unit at a critical moment to control an objective! Mega Useful!
The LC being infantry is gonna be hard to move around the battlefield, so this is very very situational..
In short, most of the utility of the personal warlord traits comes if you can give them to an IC and attach him around where needed, based on what you rolled. The other 2 charts dont look very appealing, but with his Look Out, Sir ability and IC status the personal traits + the commissar Lord make for a very flexible use of the inevitable random roll of Warlord.
Personally i would only use the Personal warlord traits on a Primaris since he is the better of the 2, with access to the new psyhic powers and a forcesword he is actually better in CC than the LC..
You mention that the 2 other charts looks unappealing..? That is a strange thing to say IMO:
Inspiring Presence: Use Warlords Ld within 12", say if your CCS had this along with the orders and heavy weapon teams, Ratlings, yeah any shooting squad actually..?
Intimidating Presence, Enemies within 12" use their lowest Ld.. Psychic shriek from a Primaris on Ld 7 guys..?
Dust of a thousand worlds, move through cover for all units within 12".. There is your mobility for your large blob squads, remember this is measured from the hull of chimeras as well..
Master of Vanguard, same as above, mobility for infantry and walkers..
Target Priority, now we are getting there..! Re-rolling 1's to shoot against objective hugging enemies.. Again this favors shooting and it has a 12" range..
Coordinated assault, really is the only one that is a bit mehh here.. As imperial guard shouldn't be in CC there is very little reason to hope for this trait..
Strategic traits are also quite okay for IG, Master of ambush/Strategic Genius is great for valk/vendetta heavy lists (which they all should be in the new rules), Night attack is good if you have first turn and wanna deliver a crippeling alpha strike and Princeps of Deceit is just plain evil..
In general i find that Personal traits are the worst for IG as we don't have any really really good single characters.. Warlord traits with a 12" bubble around them or that supports shooting on the other hand are awesome for IG, since we have so many units that can be effected by them...
This turned into a long write up, but to be honest the only reason to bring a Lord Commissar is for fluff, since you can't do the camo cloak trick anymore he is the worst HQ choice we have..
Kras..
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Post by Deathkorpsman on Aug 2, 2012 4:21:23 GMT -5
This turned into a long write up, but to be honest the only reason to bring a Lord Commissar is for fluff, since you can't do the camo cloak trick anymore he is the worst HQ choice we have.. Kras.. Actually the FAQ gave the camo-cloak Stealth and a +1 cover save. Barring a revision to the FAQ, the camo-cloak went from OK to amazing. They probably didn't intend to do that, since they replaced fluff text with rules text, but FAQ's are supposed to be taken pretty much at face value since they are intended to be specific rules fixes. Makes vets with Forward Sentries very cool too. Even if it gets fixed, they'll still be good. The Commissar Lord will take a step down though. Back on topic, I think the points listed about Personal Warlord traits is a good one. The Commissar Lord isn't great in challenges, but that isn't really the point. He can take those abilities to any squad he wants, which makes him better than a CCS for being the army warlord. He also gets a 2+ LoS! outside a challenge, instead of a 4+ for a CCS (though they can get Bodyguards for extra points), so he's a little more durable most of the time. Comparing the Primaris and the Commissar Lord is a bit difficult, because they do different things well. The Commissar Lord gives you leadership buffs, which are a force multiplier and strong asset for a large, foot-slogging, gunline. The Primaris gives you access to psyker stuff, which makes him individually great if he doesn't get shut down by anti-pyker stuff or killing himself with perils. The only way to shut down the Commissar is to actually kill him, so I find him to be a more reliable investment for the points. Since they both cost the same and the commissar has a better selection of options for making him better in a challenge if he gets stuck having to fight one, I don't think it is as bad a choice as it is being made to sound. Besides, commissars can spread their Summary Execution to other armies now. Share the love! Go out there and cap Logan Grimnar when he fails a morale test! OK, maybe this isn't such a good idea....
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Post by dangerrod on Aug 2, 2012 7:37:05 GMT -5
I'm backing Kras on this one, I've been playing around with a lot of lists recently and I still can't get one where the LC is worth the points. Yes the warlord traits can be useful but because its random you can't plan a list around them and hope you roll well. For most lists I've been using the CCS as the two orders per turn are far better than most of the warlord traits, plus you can also kit them out with more weapons than the LC -
LC w/ PW and Camo Cloak - 90
CCS w/ PW, Auto Cannon and x2 Snipers - 80
Who's puttinng out more hurt?
The other main option would be the Pysker, who generally was looked over a lot in 5th but who now its almost an automatic inclusion - Psychic Shriek is just too good, albeit with a limited range
But hey, if the LC fits your fluff, go for it
As for the Wralord Traits, I prefer the Strategic ones, just a persomel choice, my last game I rolled a one at got all my troops MTC (Ruins) which was pretty cool
Danger Rod
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Post by WestRider on Aug 2, 2012 10:04:54 GMT -5
Answer to WestRider: That powerfist may seem useful but you must remeber that it gives your toon an intiative of 1 so your always going to strike last whereas the PW may give you an extra attack. 2 base attacks+ 1pw+ Charge into assault= Four chances to hit and wound. Lord Commissar has 3 Attacks on his Profile, and the gap between 3 Attacks and 4 (4 and 5 on the Charge) is substantially smaller than that between 2 and 3. Furthermore, the difference between S3 (if you take an Axe, as Sir Samuel mentioned, you're still only S4, and still striking last) and S6 is huge, as, in many situations, is the difference between AP3 and AP2. He can hide in Blobs now rather than getting singled out, so the Init drop isn't really a big deal, and the differences in S and AP have a way bigger effect on his final damage output than one more S3 Attack.
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Post by sgtsamvimes on Aug 2, 2012 11:59:16 GMT -5
My point was, given the random nature of Warlord traits and the fact that you are forced to roll on one of those charts, LC is the best use of it. the personal traits are all abilities that can be shared around as needed so you can adapt a placement for him after you roll for traits.
I was NOT giving specific ideas outside of that, those were examples. Take a power fist if you want, the ogryns was a chuckle example, and if you want to solve all your problems with Space wolves then play f&^#%$ing space wolves.
Psykers are, IMO, too fragile to be the warlord. Especially for blob infantry, where the squads need commissars, so no perils in there or BLAM! kill point and victory point. Lord Coms are ICs too,l but have a place in the blob squads, or you can deploy them however you want based on your warlord roll. the CCS is not versatile enough (at deployment) to be the one recieving the warlord roll, because it is random.
this is in the infantry section as I think it applies most to blobsmen lists, but I still think hes the best choice to be warlord*
*except for SPESH MEHREENS, but I play guard.
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Post by commisarblur on Aug 2, 2012 21:32:06 GMT -5
Answer to WestRider: That powerfist may seem useful but you must remeber that it gives your toon an intiative of 1 so your always going to strike last whereas the PW may give you an extra attack. 2 base attacks+ 1pw+ Charge into assault= Four chances to hit and wound. Lord Commissar has 3 Attacks on his Profile, and the gap between 3 Attacks and 4 (4 and 5 on the Charge) is substantially smaller than that between 2 and 3. Furthermore, the difference between S3 (if you take an Axe, as Sir Samuel mentioned, you're still only S4, and still striking last) and S6 is huge, as, in many situations, is the difference between AP3 and AP2. He can hide in Blobs now rather than getting singled out, so the Init drop isn't really a big deal, and the differences in S and AP have a way bigger effect on his final damage output than one more S3 Attack. It all comes down to personal prefrence. You make valid points. I respect that. I just feel better with my L commissar striking first and in a fury of hits.((mostly cause when I got him he didn't have the pwr fist upgrade at the time.))
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Post by krasimirova on Aug 3, 2012 2:35:02 GMT -5
if you want to solve all your problems with Space wolves then play f&^#%$ing space wolves. Easy there tiger.. We are talking about a board game here.. They are all platic models that we think go PewPewPew.. But i can see you have your mind narrowed in on the Lord Commissar, but let me just point 1 thing out, the CCS is superior in every single way to the Lord Commissar, this CANNOT be discussed it is proven in numerous tournaments, every single thing the LC can do the CCS can do better, even the Ld bonus when combined with regular (none targetable) commissars in your line squads.. The ONLY place a LC has is with a camo cloak or in a HWT heavy army where you want your orders (CCS's orders here mate) to go on Ld 10.. And the "I play guard, so stop considering other armies" well.. Welcome to 6th edition at some point you will hopefully start to see the full potential of fun that is to be had with allies..
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Post by dangerrod on Aug 3, 2012 4:13:59 GMT -5
if you want to solve all your problems with Space wolves then play f&^#%$ing space wolves. Easy there tiger.. We are talking about a board game here.. They are all platic models that we think go PewPewPew.. But i can see you have your mind narrowed in on the Lord Commissar, but let me just point 1 thing out, the CCS is superior in every single way to the Lord Commissar, this CANNOT be discussed it is proven in numerous tournaments, every single thing the LC can do the CCS can do better, even the Ld bonus when combined with regular (none targetable) commissars in your line squads.. The ONLY place a LC has is with a camo cloak or in a HWT heavy army where you want your orders (CCS's orders here mate) to go on Ld 10.. And the "I play guard, so stop considering other armies" well.. Welcome to 6th edition at some point you will hopefully start to see the full potential of fun that is to be had with allies.. ^^^^What he said^^^^ Plus adding a vanilla Commisar to a blob squad is good enough in most instances. Leaving points to actually kit out the blob with some weapons or an Aegis defence line, which should be standard in any list that has a blob squad Danger Rod Pew pew pew!!
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Post by verminard on Aug 3, 2012 11:46:11 GMT -5
I have been re thinking my previous plan of one commissar per blob squad because of precision shot being easily available in most armies these days. Call me paranoid but I kind of like the 2+ look out sir over the 4+ and one wound. I mean, if I was fighting that unit I know who I would gun to kill first so the whole unit would break and run. Maybe a LC has taken a step up for large blobs, being the same cost as 2 standard commissars but with a higher survivability.
I like the ideas out there on what to do for warlord traits, but I do want to throw this out there in favor of the LC, and mind you I normally run a CCS for my HQ. I think the LC has the added benefit of being able to IC attach to where he needs to be at the start of the game to give the best rules possible to the right unit (assuming you make the army in mind of a warlord chart). The CCS can't join and is stuck on its own if they outflank or get counter attack, where as the LC can put a 50 man blob in outflank just like Al'Rahim. Or attach to Storm Troopers and give them scoring with an outflanking Valk.
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Post by sgtsamvimes on Aug 3, 2012 13:52:29 GMT -5
I think the LC has the added benefit of being able to IC attach to where he needs to be at the start of the game to give the best rules possible to the right unit (assuming you make the army in mind of a warlord chart). The CCS can't join and is stuck on its own if they outflank or get counter attack, where as the LC can put a 50 man blob in outflank just like Al'Rahim. Or attach to Storm Troopers and give them scoring with an outflanking Valk. This is all I was trying to say. I'm not saying they are better than a CCS, they should be taken in addition to one. Also, I'm not against allies (if you must) but when someone jumps up and says "Wrong! Space Wolves are better!" I feel like patting them on the head and say "Yes, fine, go play spesh mehreens". I was talking about Warlord tables and commissars, not how to use allys for meta-beard-cheese. thats another thread
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Post by Ymmot (M.I.A) on Aug 3, 2012 15:42:21 GMT -5
Also, I'm not against allies (if you must) but when someone jumps up and says "Wrong! Space Wolves are better!" I feel like patting them on the head and say "Yes, fine, go play spesh mehreens". I was talking about Warlord tables and commissars, not how to use allys for meta-beard-cheese. thats another thread Who said that? It is not in this thread. I love me some Commissars, this advice is useful...but the jabs at allies is confusing to me, since no one has suggested anything to warrent it.
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Post by magot on Aug 5, 2012 2:11:36 GMT -5
Who said that? It is not in this thread. uuhhh, Sam wrote it himself, But just as an alternative example instead of using a commissar, nothing more and nothing less. and with no judgment. And yes Ymmot, I agree with you, I do think Sam´s observations are use full. at least it helps me to learn how to use my dkok with the rules of the 6th
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Post by sgtsamvimes on Aug 5, 2012 10:16:47 GMT -5
Actually it was when Kras "countered" my 1st point by saying space wolf terminators are better. OF COURSE THEY ARE!!!!!
I get a bit frothy.... Its like a D&D thread about which feats my ranger should take and someone posts "don't, just play a fighter." Not helping...
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Post by krasimirova on Aug 6, 2012 5:28:02 GMT -5
Well to defend myself and my comments:
I don't play space wolves or space marines, I do play Chaos Space marines because they are a challenge, but that is besides the point..
The reason behind my answers is that i find your ideas/tacticts to be lacking in dependability (which is 1/6 chance to get what you want/need)..
You have to find a unit that is actually useful in all instances (or at least a majority of them) i would say that you can only use the Blob squad if you want to use the personal traits since the LC's is already bringing some "okay" stuff to the blob.. So no ogryns, since they are a chain around your own leg..
So 20 - 40 man power axe blob squad with a regular Commissar and a Lord Commissar is needed.. Then you have to hope for a roll of either: 1, 3 or 5.. Because these are the ones that are actually usefull..
Problem with a roll of 2 is that you properbly won't be engaging the enemy in his/her deployment zone, more likely somewhere in between, and the charge has to start in his deployment zone to give you Furious Charge.. A roll of 4 isn't gonna do much except to pick up the odd sgt. character, but any character with S6+ will most likely cost you your warlord along with any bonus he brings to the blob squad..
Roll of 6 isn't really needed since all the infantry worth taking in C:IG is already scoring.. (Short of PBS, which is such a high priority target that they don't really need it either IMO)..
Now back to the rolls we want: 1, 3 and 5.. I am tempted to say that we actually don't want 3 either, since when i build list i always try and give specific roles to my units (synergi) and radically changing a unit that is a awesome objective hugger (especially now with the Ageis defence line available to us) to a aggressive close combat tarpit unit messes up with your battle plan even before the battle starts, that is IMO not a good thing.. Sure you could attach the LC to a veteran squad and outflank those on foot (can't outflank the chimera they are in), but outflanking a 10(11) man T3 unit into enemy lines condems the unit to suicide status.. And will most likely hand your enemy the Warlord Kill Victory point, since any half dedicated CC unit will beat veterans in close combat even with a Lord Commissar attached..
Then comes the gear selection for the Lord commissar, where you 100% want a camo cloak (thanks Deathkorpsman) on your LC to help give a even better cover save at the Ageis line + you want the LC to command the Quad gun there for his BS5.. Adding a camo cloak to the outflanking veterans is a okay idea too.. but as a assault element you might wanna add a plasma pistol and a power axe to the Lord commissar aswell.. Items that arn't 100% needed on a objective hugger squad..
Now you are ofcause entitled to use the Lord commissar how ever you see fit, but it seems like you are giving him the Warlord trait to make him actually do stuff, a kinda Warlord Trait despencer, where i feel that the Primaris and the CCS actually do stuff by themself without the need for a warlord trait which in their cases is just a "bonus"..
Kras..
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Post by sgtsamvimes on Aug 6, 2012 11:36:23 GMT -5
So who would be your warlord, then? Surely not the primaris. so the CCS? fine, i guess. I feel the LC is the beter choice only because of the random nature of the warlord table and the fact that he can be moved to the squad that can most use the trait, unlike a CCS which can't join other squads and cant do much on its own, being only 5 or 6 models.
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Post by krasimirova on Aug 6, 2012 11:44:04 GMT -5
CCS which can't join other squads and cant do much on its own, being only 5 or 6 models. Seriously..? Orders.. 4 Special weapons + a plasmapistol or a 2/1 special/heavy weapon setup with a BS of 4, basically being the cheapest and most heavy armed unit IN THE GAME for the point cost.. Advisors for table wide benefits.. Not being a easy 1 model kill point.. Access to FNP, Stealth and Carapace armor.. Upgradeable characters that boost your army with Counter charge, Furious charge and Ld.. Now you mentioned something about not doing much.. The Lord commissar dosn't do much.. He gives a Ld' bubble and access to some very limited CC potential.. ONLY saving grace is the stealth rule "abuse" on large infantry formations..
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Post by sgtsamvimes on Aug 6, 2012 13:11:34 GMT -5
I'm not suggesting one is better than the other. I'm suggesting taking them both, but that the LC is the better choice to be warlord. He's more flexible and arguably more durable, since he's an IC and can move between squads.
This is posted in Infantry because I think this is best for blobsmen armies, who would probably be taking the LC anyway. If you don't like the LC, don't take him. All i'm saying is he's the best choice for warlord in addition to his other benefits to an infantry based army.
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Post by commisarblur on Aug 6, 2012 14:18:48 GMT -5
The personal traits in the warlord section sound like thier tailored for a frontline commander with a large troop deplopment. A lord commisar sounds tailored for this role. For CCS you should try traits from the stragety side.
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Post by dangerrod on Aug 6, 2012 19:27:59 GMT -5
Well a CCS Sqaud for me is still the better opion for a full blobsmen army (even two CCS if your maxing out troop choices) as there orders and upgrades will always produce better results (gamewise) than a single LC. A vanilla Commissar would be better spent on the blob sqaud along with an Aegis DL.
The Aegis DL is by far the best thing to come out in 6th Ed for IG blobsmen armies, unless your trying to walk a blobsmen squad across the board....which is never a good idea
Also, I cant see how a T3 LC is more durable than a PS, ok he has 1 more wound, but both will still be instant killed by almost everything out there! They both have refractor fields as well
Also the PS has a Force Weapon, so even if he gets into close combat and survies any high iniative attacks he's going to have a dam good chance of sending them to hell if any wounds get through
Danger Rod
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Post by magot on Aug 7, 2012 2:21:09 GMT -5
If you pick a Kill Point Scenario, the Warlord is 100pts. so your opponent will hunt him down for this. I am not that experienced in this game, but I was thinking what the best option for a WL choice would be. equally regardless of the the WL Traits you have to roll for. You definitely want a CCS for obvious reasons But if you make your CCS commander the WL he will be in a very small unit with the corresponding protection. (However he could do some good there if you are lucky with the Traits roll.) On the other hand if you are able make the LC your War Lord and put him in a 40man blob, wouldn´t he get more change to survive ? Remember. You must appoint a Warlord, worth 100pts. therefore I can see the benefits for making the LC the Warlord, Like Sam is pointing out. Add this to the possibility to make the best flexible use of your 1 to 6 change War Lord Trait roll and the LC seems a good choice. And you still can add him as a IC to your CCS if the outcome of the roll for the Traits justifies this (if you like him of course.. ) Uhmm, I do like mine
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