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Post by Machine Gun Kelly on Aug 15, 2012 5:13:48 GMT -5
So with the new hull points and only hitting on 6 if the flyer zooms around.
Have anyone tried using the punisher to go fly hunting?
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Pyrotechnics
Captain
Let the promethium burn it to a cinder!
Posts: 238
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Post by Pyrotechnics on Aug 15, 2012 6:06:15 GMT -5
I haven't, but I get the feeling that the hydra could do this a lot better than the punisher. Not to mention that it can't even scratch the paint on AV12 with its strength 5, so you'd need to get a rear armour shot on, say, a Valk or Ven. Not impossible, but then you're also needing to deal with rolling a 5 to glance AV10, 6 to pen. Then there is the jink save as well.
So, some basic math-hammer done late at night (it's always a good idea to do maths late at night!)
20 Shots, hitting on sixes.
Average of 3.33 hits.
1/3 chance to take off a hull point.
1.11 hull point removed per shooting phase, assuming you can get a rear armour shot. Of course, you might get absurdly lucky and roll 3 sixes in a row and explode it (if AP-- doesn't affect the roll... I can't remember if it does in 6th.) but that is not very likely.
Heavy Bolters - 1/3 chance to hit meaning one hit per HB. 1/3 of those would strip a hull point. So if you had the HB sponsons with the punisher, it would all add up to one more hull point. Total of 2.11 before jink. 0.7 after jink.
Compared to the Hydra...
4 shots with autocannon. Hits on 4+, twin-linked. Average of 3 hits.
Assuming AV10 (as we did with the punisher) glancing on 3+, meaning 2/3 will strip a hullpoint, 1 or both of those will pen.
So 2 hull points removed per shooting phase with the higher likelyhood to pen. No jink save.
BUT we also get the heavy bolter shots if it's rear armour!
1.5 hits.
1/3 chance to strip a hullpoint.
So another .5 hullpoints stripped. Still no jink save.
Which averages out to 2.5 hullpoints removed per shoot phase per hydra on a flyer presenting rear armour, compared to the punisher's 0.7
Now the punisher is tougher with 14,13,11 but you can get two, almost three hydras for the same price as the single punisher with HB sponsons. Meaning around 5 hull points removed for less than the price of a single machine which only removes 0.7
DISCLAIMER: All Math-hammer performed by a tired student with no calculator. Use at own risk.
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Post by krasimirova on Aug 15, 2012 6:18:46 GMT -5
Punisher is worthless in this role as well..
It has been proven by math, by experience and by the community..
Good try thou..
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Post by Machine Gun Kelly on Aug 15, 2012 6:27:03 GMT -5
Kind of what I thought. It still sucks.
But in my opinion considering mathhammer is that if it is going to be viable it needs to transformed into whole dices and points. You can´t roll 3.33 hits per turn. you will need to convert it into 4 hits since it is higher than 3.
Also you cant remove 1.11 hullpoints so you need to round it up to 2 since it higher than 1.
That way you get a vehicles badassines per turn = X. After that it is easier to turn it into an eqation where y equals number of turns.
X*Y= Badassiness per game.
But I digress from the point. The punisher sucks at hunting flyers to.
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Post by dangerrod on Aug 15, 2012 7:12:37 GMT -5
Yep, it still sucks in this role as well!
I would like to see the Punisher given a good overhaul in the next IG dex (whenever that may be....) its current stat line of H20 S5 AP- is so not worth the 180Pts
Maybe if it dropped to 160Pts and give it a AP5, it maybe worth taking....maybe.....
Even cooler is if they changed it altogether and gave it a stat line up similar to the Thunderfire Cannon with selective ammoo etc, then 180Pts would be worth it!
As for AA, the Quad Gun mounted to the Aegis Defence Line is the best AA in the game right now....until someone gets to use Flakk Missiles
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Post by bobrunnicles on Aug 15, 2012 13:45:57 GMT -5
As for AA, the Quad Gun mounted to the Aegis Defence Line is the best AA in the game right now....until someone gets to use Flakk Missiles Goes a long way towards explaining the difficulty in ordering either the Aegis Defense Line and/or the Imperial Strongpoint sets from my FLGS - GW themselves are out of stock! Update - apparently my store just got in the ADL I ordered two weeks ago so the supply line has been restored, it seems  |
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Post by emptyhat on Aug 15, 2012 15:16:39 GMT -5
The short range kinda scuppers it aswell.
Does anyone think it would be viable if it had Skyfire and interceptor at its current points.
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Post by WestRider on Aug 15, 2012 17:36:27 GMT -5
The short range kinda scuppers it aswell. Does anyone think it would be viable if it had Skyfire and interceptor at its current points. Not really. It still suffers from the short range, and the fact that it can't even scratch Vendettas that it can't get behind, or ChibiHawks no matter what the angle. |
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Post by theyshallnotpass on Aug 23, 2012 4:05:58 GMT -5
I've had the same thought and to be honest I think it's worth a try against lightly armoured flyers or skimmers. While the Punisher is over priced, I can see it being a real annoyance to an opponent, simply because of how many shots it can fire per turn. Add in extra armour or camo netting and sit back and laugh as your opponent blazes away against it while ignoring your really deadly units. Well at least that is the theory.
I am however going to try it out, having just bought a Punisher off Ebay, though with Plasma Cannons rather than extra armour.
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Post by krasimirova on Aug 23, 2012 5:16:47 GMT -5
shallnotpass..
So you wanna add 35 points of upgrades to a worthless tank.. Making it even more worthless..
Not only that you are planing on keeping it still to use camo netting.. With a range of 24"...
BS3.. 20 shots.. 10 hits.. 1.67 glances and 1.67 penetrating hits against AV10.. (Havn't taken Jink saves into account) Ohh and it can't hurt AV12 at all.. So Vendettas and Stormraven are safe to deliver terminators and triple lascannons to you..
So using 200+ points worth of tank to put 1 - 2 hull points of damage on AV 10 vehicles.. Whenever the opponent makes the mistake of getting within the minimal range of said tank..
----
To everybody, you really don't have to try and re invent the Punisher, don't get blinded by Heavy 20 like so many before you have done.. The punisher is worthless and everything that it "can" do, can be done better and cheaper by other units..
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Post by dangerrod on Aug 23, 2012 5:57:03 GMT -5
^^What he said^^
We have much better tanks for any role that GW designed the Punisher for!
Dont waste your points on it, any decent player would stay 24" away from it as we can all pre measure! Or as Kras says, it will get hammered in assault or a dedicated anti tank unit (looking at you Long Fangs!!)
Danger Rod
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Post by DadCRO on Aug 23, 2012 20:52:42 GMT -5
*sigh* I so wish that the punisher was a good tank. It's such a cool model, and they had to go and make it way overpriced for what it does.
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Post by davejr on Nov 27, 2012 23:07:37 GMT -5
Read the rules for Pask for crack shot when shooting vehicles +1 to armour penitration rolls. Pask is amazing in a punisher. His Crack shot rule is awesome and people complain about the punishers lack of range, seriously 24" is far and u shouldn't even worry about assault since if your smart it's bubble wrapped anyways. I just played a battle where Pask's Punisher glanced to death 2 defilers in back to back turns (4,000) point match Guard vs CSM/Daemons/ Traiter Guard). Throwing camo netting and sitting it behind a defence line is pretty scary especially if you've got big guns they have to silence. As a fly swatter for the points cost your better taking 3 Hydras but only need one and/or vendetta. If we all had the same list it'd be boring and the Pask/Punisher fills so many roles except anti- av 13+ and for that get a vendetta. He is great vs MC's rerolls to wound them, great vs infintry, etc etc
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Post by dangerrod on Nov 28, 2012 6:17:31 GMT -5
The punisher is a bad tank. Enough said. What he said! We have sooo many better weapons on our arsenal to take care of flyers and other tanks. The Manticore is possibly one of the best tank killers in the game, especially with the changes to barrage/ordnance And if its anti-air, look no further than the Hydra, Quad gun or the Vendetta All of these are way cheaper than the 240Pts that Pask and Punisher is going to cost you, for just the chance to glance AV12 and Snap shoot any flyers. Stay away from the Punisher! Danger Rod |
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Post by The Hawk! on Nov 28, 2012 6:46:54 GMT -5
Yep, it still sucks in this role as well! I would like to see the Punisher given a good overhaul in the next IG dex (whenever that may be....) its current stat line of H20 S5 AP- is so not worth the 180Pts Maybe if it dropped to 160Pts and give it a AP5, it maybe worth taking....maybe..... Even cooler is if they changed it altogether and gave it a stat line up similar to the Thunderfire Cannon with selective ammoo etc, then 180Pts would be worth it! As for AA, the Quad Gun mounted to the Aegis Defence Line is the best AA in the game right now....until someone gets to use Flakk Missiles CSM Have Flakk Missiles  Dave |
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Post by dangerrod on Nov 28, 2012 6:57:18 GMT -5
Yep, it still sucks in this role as well! I would like to see the Punisher given a good overhaul in the next IG dex (whenever that may be....) its current stat line of H20 S5 AP- is so not worth the 180Pts Maybe if it dropped to 160Pts and give it a AP5, it maybe worth taking....maybe..... Even cooler is if they changed it altogether and gave it a stat line up similar to the Thunderfire Cannon with selective ammoo etc, then 180Pts would be worth it! As for AA, the Quad Gun mounted to the Aegis Defence Line is the best AA in the game right now....until someone gets to use Flakk Missiles CSM Have Flakk Missiles Dave Yeah, they do, they also only have 3+ Armour saves. Also they don't have the Interceptor USR and the Flakk Missile is overpriced and only S7. For a squad of five CSM with four missile launchers and Flakk missiles, it's 175pts! Thats not very scary if you ask me!! What is scary is the Imperial Guard FW Sabre platforms, three T/L Lascannons with Skyfire and Interceptor USR for 150pts! Danger Rod |
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Post by The Hawk! on Nov 28, 2012 7:36:45 GMT -5
CSM Have Flakk Missiles Dave Yeah, they do, they also only have 3+ Armour saves. Also they don't have the Interceptor USR and the Flakk Missile is overpriced and only S7. For a squad of five CSM with four missile launchers and Flakk missiles, it's 175pts! Thats not very scary if you ask me!! What is scary is the Imperial Guard FW Sabre platforms, three T/L Lascannons with Skyfire and Interceptor USR for 150pts! Danger Rod True.... But still.... My guys have something you don't have  I was looking at Flakk Missiles actually and to be honest.... they don't seem all that good. I guess there better at hitting the flyer, but they are a bit of a let down. And to say its a +15 points per model, and Havoks arn't cheap anyway. But oh well, Its still better than a Punisher Dave |
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Post by WestRider on Nov 28, 2012 12:15:09 GMT -5
And Dangerrod's post was actually correct when he made it back in August. At that point, CSM didn't have Flakk |
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Post by diezel on Dec 10, 2012 13:03:10 GMT -5
Yep, it still sucks in this role as well! I would like to see the Punisher given a good overhaul in the next IG dex (whenever that may be....) its current stat line of H20 S5 AP- is so not worth the 180Pts Maybe if it dropped to 160Pts and give it a AP5, it maybe worth taking....maybe..... Even cooler is if they changed it altogether and gave it a stat line up similar to the Thunderfire Cannon with selective ammoo etc, then 180Pts would be worth it! As for AA, the Quad Gun mounted to the Aegis Defence Line is the best AA in the game right now....until someone gets to use Flakk Missiles I play against alot of orks, around 1850 pts usually and i enjoy it with pask, every single time lol also the only time i take it. But when i do i pimp it out lol. HB spons, Stubber BS4 really helps with this Tank and sitting still gives it +1 str with pask so Str6, 20 shots ap-( ap- sux i know but its orks, so who cares lol ), plus the 9 Str6 Bolter shots, and the 3 Str4 stubber shots. With pask it makes it a more viable option, also its basically an auto kill against av 10-11, Even av 12 it isnt to bad. Downside is Cost. Pask would be a good try against flyers! but hydras still own the skies either way! |
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Post by dangerrod on Dec 10, 2012 18:49:37 GMT -5
Yep, it still sucks in this role as well! I would like to see the Punisher given a good overhaul in the next IG dex (whenever that may be....) its current stat line of H20 S5 AP- is so not worth the 180Pts Maybe if it dropped to 160Pts and give it a AP5, it maybe worth taking....maybe..... Even cooler is if they changed it altogether and gave it a stat line up similar to the Thunderfire Cannon with selective ammoo etc, then 180Pts would be worth it! As for AA, the Quad Gun mounted to the Aegis Defence Line is the best AA in the game right now....until someone gets to use Flakk Missiles I play against alot of orks, around 1850 pts usually and i enjoy it with pask, every single time lol also the only time i take it. But when i do i pimp it out lol. HB spons, Stubber BS4 really helps with this Tank and sitting still gives it +1 str with pask so Str6, 20 shots ap-( ap- sux i know but its orks, so who cares lol ), plus the 9 Str6 Bolter shots, and the 3 Str4 stubber shots. With pask it makes it a more viable option, also its basically an auto kill against av 10-11, Even av 12 it isnt to bad. Downside is Cost. Pask would be a good try against flyers! but hydras still own the skies either way! Again, any decent enemy (even Orks) would just stay 24" away from the tank! Its short range and poor AP ARE what kills this tank, and by not moving it its going to get assaulted to death! If you want to kill Orks, the Manticore will and can kill more! Its a far better option all round. If you want a Russ, take anything that isn't a Punisher! If you want AA take a Quad gun, its probably the best AA in the game. If not take a Hydra (or two) Or the Vendetta Plus, for a Punisher with Pask its around 230pts. For that amount you could get a Manticore and a Heavy Weapon Team with Autcannons for just 5pts more! A much better option!! Rant over Danger Rod |
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Post by Julian Sharps on Dec 12, 2012 12:43:56 GMT -5
Actually, under the 6th edition rules, the Punisher got improved, if you want a light transport destroyer. Give the Punisher heavy bolter sponsons (as well as the hull mount) and send it up against Rhinos, Trukks, Raiders, even Chimeras if you can get side armor.
29 shots @ BS 3 = 14.5 hits
S 5 vs. AV 11 = 1/6 chance of doing damage = 2.4 hull points
Granted, this Punisher would have to kill no less than 6 Rhinos in order to make its points back, and it's not much good for killing anything else, but a reliable 2.4 hull points off an AV 11 vehicle is nothing to sneeze at, especially when a number of AV 11- vehicles only have two hull points.
Yes, I'm just trying to find a role for this tank; I'm fully aware that a Paxterminator with a hull-mount lascannon is only slightly more expensive, while being much more versatile and effective at taking out armor of any kind.
4 TL shots @ BS 4 = 3.54 hits
1 shot @ BS 4 = .67 hits
S 8 vs AV 11 = 2.36 hull points | vs AV 12 = 1.77 hull points | vs AV 13 = 1.18 hull points | vs AV 14 = .59 hull points
S10 vs AV 11 = .67 hull points | vs AV 12 = .558 hull points | vs AV 13 = .447 hull points | vs AV 14 = .34 hull points
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Post by vegna on Dec 12, 2012 14:23:00 GMT -5
Julian we don't need to "find" a role for it, they should be clear cut, the jobs they can do cheaper units can do insted. I'd LOVE to be able to field one, but i feel it would just make me sad to see it do the same amount of damage as a squad of lasguns to the enemy :/
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Post by velauzehraptor on Dec 31, 2012 3:16:23 GMT -5
Punishers when the rules for this editions Imperial Guard were first leaked on the French? (I think) website, at our local store were very much looking forward to it. When the rules finally came out we tried it. we caused 2 wounds. The Plague Marine saved them both.
It's pathetic.
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Post by velauzehraptor on Dec 31, 2012 3:16:50 GMT -5
^ That's without even using his FnP.
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Post by vegna on Dec 31, 2012 10:28:55 GMT -5
wouldnt use it against marines, would rather use it against nids and orks.
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I was looking at Flakk Missiles actually and to be honest.... they don't seem all that good. I guess there better at hitting the flyer, but they are a bit of a let down. And to say its a +15 points per model, and Havoks arn't cheap anyway. But oh well, Its still better than a Punisher 
