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Post by kobracommander on Sept 7, 2012 10:23:16 GMT -5
The big thing, is now LR's count as heavy vehicles...so when they move they always count as being stationary!!!!!! I'll finally run sponsons on my Russes... unless I missed something, moving 12" and firing all weapons at balistic skill is just plain NASTY!
Seems roughriders have a weird power lance.
Valks may just be the best flyer TRANSPORT ever. As even on an immobilized roll (velocity locked), you can still disembark....
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Post by Ymmot (M.I.A) on Sept 7, 2012 12:05:47 GMT -5
Heavy vehicles can't move faster than combat speed.
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Post by kobracommander on Sept 7, 2012 12:34:38 GMT -5
OH my bad...got combat and cruising mixed up...
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Post by portugus on Sept 7, 2012 19:45:03 GMT -5
Something some people have noticed was that firing ordnance means any other weapons can only be snapfired. So any tank with a heavy weapon turret will want sponsons.
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Post by magot on Sept 8, 2012 2:15:44 GMT -5
Something some people have noticed was that firing ordnance means any other weapons can only be snapfired. So any tank with a heavy weapon turret will want sponsons. a LRBT can now indeed only move at combat speed and nothing else. BUT .... if it does so, it counts as remained stationairy. a vehicle remained stationary can fire all of its weapons ! the last paragraph on pag.71 relates to firing ordnance weapons when they moved... !! but the LRBT doesn´t count as having moved and therefore can shoot everything with their normal BS. |
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Post by Trickstick on Sept 8, 2012 10:02:11 GMT -5
the last paragraph on pag.71 relates to firing ordnance weapons when they moved... !! but the LRBT doesn´t count as having moved and therefore can shoot everything with their normal BS. Not true. It states that vehicles can move and fire ordnance, unlike other units. However, it also states that they can only make snap shots if they do fire one. It is near the bit about moving but doesn't state anything about it. |
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Post by magot on Sept 8, 2012 13:08:51 GMT -5
the last paragraph on pag.71 relates to firing ordnance weapons when they moved... !! but the LRBT doesn´t count as having moved and therefore can shoot everything with their normal BS. Not true. It states that vehicles can move and fire ordnance, unlike other units. However, it also states that they can only make snap shots if they do fire one. It is near the bit about moving but doesn't state anything about it. you're right, I missed the point at the end of the sentence  |
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Post by Wraelis on Sept 8, 2012 13:33:25 GMT -5
I totally had my hopes up for a second with that too...
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Post by treadiculous on Sept 8, 2012 14:43:18 GMT -5
.. Good news for the non-ordnance Russ variants though...
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tonba
Guardsman
Posts: 60
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Post by tonba on Sept 9, 2012 17:57:15 GMT -5
No.. the way I read it, it gets a MAJOR boost.
Heavy Vehicle - Always counts as stationary, can only move 6" per turn
Ordinance - If vehicle is stationary, it may fire other weapons in addition to ordinance are normal BS
Any vehicle may move and fire ordinance, but all other weapons must be taken as snapshots.
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Post by treadiculous on Sept 9, 2012 18:02:48 GMT -5
If it counts as stationary does that mean attacks in close combat are automatic hits?
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Post by Lord General Armstrong on Sept 9, 2012 18:09:13 GMT -5
No.. the way I read it, it gets a MAJOR boost. Heavy Vehicle - Always counts as stationary, can only move 6" per turn Ordinance - If vehicle is stationary, it may fire other weapons in addition to ordinance are normal BS Any vehicle may move and fire ordinance, but all other weapons must be taken as snapshots. That, so any other vehicle can only move and shoot other weapons with snap shot. Basilisks and Vindicators come to mind, the LRMBT now being an exception to this moving and firing ordinance rule as it is a heavy vehicle. |
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Post by emptyhat on Sept 9, 2012 18:15:39 GMT -5
I think that pg 71 Vehicles & Ordinance Weapons is why people think the other weapons will be snap shots Tonba. Since whether a vehicle moves or not any other weapons are fired as snap shots if it fires ordinance.
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tonba
Guardsman
Posts: 60
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Post by tonba on Sept 9, 2012 18:58:00 GMT -5
No.. the way I read it, it gets a MAJOR boost. Heavy Vehicle - Always counts as stationary, can only move 6" per turn Ordinance - If vehicle is stationary, it may fire other weapons in addition to ordinance are normal BS Any vehicle may move and fire ordinance, but all other weapons must be taken as snapshots. That, so any other vehicle can only move and shoot other weapons with snap shot. Basilisks and Vindicators come to mind, the LRMBT now being an exception to this moving and firing ordinance rule as it is a heavy vehicle. Exactly!! Vinny and Bassy can move, fire ordinance with all other weapons being snapshots... Leman russ can move, fire ordinance and all other weapons are a normal BS |
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Post by WestRider on Sept 9, 2012 20:57:19 GMT -5
No, there are two different parts to the Ordnance and Vehicles Rule. They have no relation to each other.
- The first part says that Vehicles can Move and Fire Ordnance, overriding the regular prohibition on this.
- The second part says that if a Vehicle Fires Ordnance, all it's other Weapons are Snap Shots. This has nothing to do with whether or not the Vehicle Moved. If a Vehicle fires an Ordnance Weapon, all its other Weapons fire as Snap Shots, regardless of whether or not it Moved that Turn.
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Post by Rook on Sept 9, 2012 21:19:42 GMT -5
- The second part says that if a Vehicle Fires Ordnance, all it's other Weapons are Snap Shots. This has nothing to do with whether or not the Vehicle Moved. If a Vehicle fires an Ordnance Weapon, all its other Weapons fire as Snap Shots, regardless of whether or not it Moved that Turn. There is no rule on a vehicle that remains still and fires ordnance. As least no rule I can find. If there were I think some of this confusion would be lessened. To be honest I don't know how I feel about all this. I can see and understand both sides. The thing that keeps coming up in my mind is that the Leman Russ had a special rule that made it better. If what you are saying is true then it isn't better at all but the same as any other vehicle which I don't think was the intention. Why the spec rule then? I will add that page 426 has a chart and if you look at 'Heavy' it reads 'All' and 'All'(number of weapons fired at full BS) for stationary and combat speed. It even goes so far as to say page 83 for heavies and page 71 for 'All other vehicles' which the Russ no longer is due to the new FAQ. The BaneBlade and StormLord and such...what types of weapons do they have? They made shed some light on the subject. |
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Post by Ymmot (M.I.A) on Sept 9, 2012 21:28:15 GMT -5
They are special in that they are heavy vehicles, if you choose to move forward you can opt not to fire the battle cannon and fire all other weapons at full BS(and if you're using a veriant that does not fire ordanace, all your weapons may be fired at full BS). pg 71 makes it clear that any vehicle that fires ordanance can only fire other wearons as snap shots. Nothing at all about the new FAQ for lumbering behemoth contridicts that. To me, it is all very black and white...you just need to remind yourself to forget everything about the pervious edition.
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Post by Rook on Sept 9, 2012 22:30:54 GMT -5
They are special in that they are heavy vehicles, if you choose to move forward you can opt not to fire the battle cannon and fire all other weapons at full BS(and if you're using a veriant that does not fire ordanace, all your weapons may be fired at full BS). pg 71 makes it clear that any vehicle that fires ordanance can only fire other wearons as snap shots. Nothing at all about the new FAQ for lumbering behemoth contridicts that. To me, it is all very black and white...you just need to remind yourself to forget everything about the pervious edition. Totally see your point that you would think that way. Now I want you to look at page 71; look at it very closely. The section header reads "SHOOTING WITH VEHICLES" 'When a vehicle fires, it uses it's own ballistic skill...yada, yada, yada. All it's weapons must fire at the same target." Notice that section header is larger than the rest(bigger font)? That's because it conveys a different rule from what came before. Now look at the subsection "MOVING AND SHOOTING WITH VEHICLES" this is where the paragraph that everyone is referencing can be found(that paragraph is a sub rule in a subsection). The Leman Russ is no longer considered MOVING AND SHOOTING. Only the first section is relevant. The section that reads "(Only)SHOOTING WITH VEHICLES" The Leman Russ is not subject to any part of that subsection or sub rule because it is never considered moving when it shoots. That's the way I see it now. *I put the capitals in because that is exactly how it is written in the book. I didn't do it to be an ass. |
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Post by Ymmot (M.I.A) on Sept 9, 2012 22:52:19 GMT -5
that bit is under the moving and shooting subsection because it contains the rule that states a vehicle may move and fire ordnance, but the very next sentence says if a vehicle fires ordnance, all other weapons can only fire as snap shots.
my interpretation of the rules always favors the simplest solution, even if it makes one of my favorite units a little less effective than it used to be. What it says on the page is typically how it works in my opinion, I am happy to change it around if GW admits to a mistake(as in they say, if a vehicle moves and fires ordnance all other weapons can only be fired as snap shots), and when there is conflicting information it gets a lot more confusing...but in this I still do not see the conflict.
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Post by Rook on Sept 9, 2012 23:02:43 GMT -5
One of the many thing I respect about you Ymmot is your seemingly binary approach to things. It is strength to say the least.
Yet I'm still leaning towards what I typed last.
We have to assume that with this new FAQ they have addressed everything. A simple sentence in that SHOOTING WITH VEHICLES section that read "unless firing ordnance, then see below" would have solved it. But since that sentence is lacking I still see it as a sub subsection to the original rule of vehicles only shooting.
Of course they could have added 'Relentless' to the Russ and that would have cleared it all up as well...but alas.
I still think the answer can be found with StormLords and BaneBlades but I don't possess those rules to look up. Are they heavies? Do they have ordnance?
Of course there is NO rule on a vehicle that hasn't moved firing ordnance.
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Post by Ymmot (M.I.A) on Sept 9, 2012 23:30:09 GMT -5
Well, page 71 also states that all vehicles are relentless.
Which is kind of odd, but makes sense for walkers.
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Post by egon on Sept 10, 2012 6:52:29 GMT -5
So now Russes really have no reason to move to avoid being hit. Now that they always count as stationary they are always hit automatically.
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Post by badgersplatter on Sept 10, 2012 6:57:42 GMT -5
I'm pretty sure that bit at the bottom of 71 that is being referred to as the rules for "moving and shooting with vehicles" is actually headed "vehicles and ordnance" and just happens to include moving. It's a misleading layout perhaps, but it's a pretty simple sentence that just says "if you fired ordnance, you snapshot the rest" not "if you moved and fire ordnance, you snapshot the rest."
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Post by Rook on Sept 10, 2012 11:40:20 GMT -5
I'm pretty sure that bit at the bottom of 71 that is being referred to as the rules for "moving and shooting with vehicles" is actually headed "vehicles and ordnance" and just happens to include moving. It's a misleading layout perhaps, but it's a pretty simple sentence that just says "if you fired ordnance, you snapshot the rest" not "if you moved and fire ordnance, you snapshot the rest." Then why isn't it in the section before it that has nothing to do with moving? Hmmm, I can still see both arguments as valid. Oh well... |
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Post by Empirespy on Sept 10, 2012 14:13:56 GMT -5
Because it is a simple rule, it has it's own header, but as it is an advanced rule, it should logically come after the more basic rules, ie moving and shooting. This is my opinion on the matter. It is very subjective though, so I can see where you are coming from, and in all fairness your point has as much validity as my point...
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