Post by Trickstick on Dec 8, 2012 14:11:21 GMT -5
I've been reading my copy of IA1:2nd and quite enjoying it. However, after making some posts there does not seem to be a massive interest in the subject of the new armoured battle group (ABG for short) list that was included. I think that it would be good to start discussion on this subject, although I guess not many people know much about it, as it has just been release and is Forge World, which never seems to get as wide a circulation as the GW materials.
I hope that to increase interest in this topic, as it is a fun and characterful list with some good strengths and weaknesses. I know that IA1:2nd is a new book and probably most people have not had a chance to read it, so I shall try to offer an overview of the list and the units within. Obviously I can't just write the whole thing out, but I shall try to get the balance of information right. However, when in doubt I am going to err on the side of not posting details. My aim is to give people enough information that they can gauge their interest in picking the list up for themselves, or to not be so confused if they meet it across the table.
Also, as leman russ reviews have been done to death since the codex came out, I'm going to assume a base level of understanding about the different variants and there rolls. I may inject my own thoughts at certain points but if I tried to review all of the different weapon choices this would take forever.
From the Top - ABG Specific Rules, Wargear and Warlord Traits
The list is mostly similar to a general Codex:IG list, just with a different structure and a few special additions. As these are integral to the list and colour the view of all the units, I thought it best to outline these first.
Special Rules
There are a random smattering of rules that apply to different units but the only major one is the Company Command Tank rule. This is the ABGs version of the order system from C:IG, and although it is more limited I feel it is a characterful and welcome addition to the list. It seems like a part replacement to the ace crew skills from the old list, making the command structure play a more important role than it used to. Each command tank can issue a single order per turn, rolling on a chart to determine success. Depending on the order given, different effects can be achieved:
Concentrated Fire: This is the extra firepower order and the one that I reckon will be the most popular. It is similar in effect to the "Fire on my Target" order in the Codex. Seems like a good order for most tanks, especially for standard LRBTs against marines in cover.
Erratic Manoeuvres: This order gives the unit it is used on extra resilience in close combat. I like to compare it to the "Incoming" order, as it has the same effect of trading firepower for durability.
Full Speed Ahead!: Gives a unit a boosted flat out move, so I don't think it works on heavy vehicles. However, can be useful for getting units where they are needed quicker.
I quite like the orders they have added, they are too limited to be called overpowered and yet give the player some nice bonuses that they can throw about. As they affect squadrons, they become a much more viable choice when building a list. Good job too, as you will need squadrons if you want a decent number of russes in your list.
Wargear
Some varied upgrades for units:
Mine Plow - A more effective dozer blade that also gives bonuses when tank shocking.
Artificer Hull - Take a bonus hull point.
Track Guards - Guards for tracks, pretty simple. You get a save against immobilised results.
Improved Comms - Improved order range.
AA Mounts - These give skyfire to pintle weapons. I'm not too sure how effective stubbers and stormbolters will be against air units, although it is nice to have the option for cheap AA if you need it.
Anti-grenade Mesh - Gives you a save against grenades.
Specialist Ammunition - Command and Commissar tanks can take alternative ammunition types, with varying effects. Some are limited to certain tank types:
Infernus - LRBTs; a cover ignoring shell.
Illum - Flares to combat night fighting.
Augur - Conqueror; Similar effects to the Necron's entropic strike rule.
Beast Hunter - Vanquisher; a small blast weapon which inflicts instant death. I like being able to use blasts with vanquishers again, although in a limited scope.
Warlord Traits
I don't really want to list these as it is hard to do so without just copying the table. They do seem a good mix though, not too useless or too powerful. The one that gives your warlord VPs for destroying things with ram attacks is odd, as I never really end up ramming. Should be fun to go mad and try to ram things every once in a while.
HQ
Company Command Tank
This is what I see most people taking, unless they want to try something a bit more oddball. Can be mounted in a standard LRBT or upgrade to exterminator, conqueror, annihilator, vanquisher or eradicator. Can issue a single order a turn and has a higher BS. Also one of the few tanks that can take an artificer hull or special ammunition upgrades.
A very nice centrepiece for your force. Pick whatever variant and weapons you think best and have at them. However, in an army or russes I foresee this tank drawing a lot of fire, so best to keep it safe somewhere. My personal choice is going to be a vanquisher with artificer hull (for durability) and beast hunter shells for some retro fun. This can get expensive though, as my current vanquisher with lascannon is over two hundred points before sponsons.
Armoured Fist Command Squad
Pretty much a PCS as an HQ choice, forced to take a chimera. Very good if you want to build a mechanised list with some support elements, instead of the standard heavy tank style list. Has the option of upgrading to a company commander.
Salamander Reconnaissance Commander
Fast, cheap and can give out tank orders; this is the budget HQ. Still, you get a nice unit, if a bit fragile. Also comes with an auspex that can debuff enemy cover saves.
Captain Obadiah Schfeer
A beefed up command vanquisher with a few of the wargear choices and the tank-killers rule (I think this means tank-hunters USR). He also replaces your warlord trait with his own if he is used as the warlord. His trait gives him an aura that makes it LD checks harder for enemies.
General Grizmund
Another beefed up tank, this time a command LRBT. He gets a standard and a different warlord trait that improves a single squadrons BS. I can see this being quite nice with some of the non-blast squadrons.
Elites
Commissar Tank
Commissar tanks were demoted to elites in this version, although this does give you the ability to take more than you used to. Can only take the lighter tank types, so no punisher/demolisher/executioner. They do have access to special ammunition though, so I expect the tanks that can use them will feature more commonly. They keep the LD bubble ability too.
Destroyer Tank Hunter Squadron
Very effective AT power. I used to find these a bit hit and miss (literally) with their poor BS. However, they have picked up the twin-linked rule and are now pretty reliable.
Atlas Recovery Tank
A techpriest in vehicle form, it can also drag immobilised vehicles around. It cannot repair things itself but if used with a techpriest it buffs his repairs and gives him a bonus repair action.
Armoured Fist Storm Trooper Squad
Stormtroopers in a chimera. They can still do everything they can in the codex, although have less of a place in ABG. Still, can be fun to have some deep striking or outflanking/infiltrating units.
Techpriest Enginseer
These hold the lofty position as the only infantry unit not forced to use a transport. However, they can use a trojan support vehicle as a dedicated transport if they wish. Trojans are cheap, made of paper and can give a unit nearby preferred enemy. Nice little transport if you want to have some support vehicles in your list.
Troops
Battle Tank Squadron
These are squadrons made up of the six lower rear armour variants. The only one worth adding a bit about is the conqueror, as it is an addition over the codex types.
The conqueror is an odd little tank. The main gun is a bit weaker than the standard cannon, and only comes with a small blast. However, the tank is not a heavy vehicle and it comes with a co-axial stormbolter, so is faster and more accurate than the standard. I can see these being used to give a bit of heavy armour to a fast flanking force, as they have the speed to keep up. They will really suffer if you use them as a line tanks though. I can see some merit to using them as a command or commissar tank though, able to lead a small flanking force and use augur shells to lower armour values. Sadly, the troop style ones can't use these rare shells though.
Siege Tank Squadron
These are the heavier armour tanks: demolisher, executioner, punisher and thunderer. Pretty standard stuff.
Armoured Fist Squad
A platoon infantry squad in a chimera. These are one of the only two scoring units the list has access to, unless you get the scoring unit warlord trait that is. They have the option to trade their lasguns for laspistols, so you could get some extra attacks.
Armoured Fist Veterans
The other scoring unit. However, they come as five man squads that can purchase up to five more men. Must buy either a centaur (if five models) or a chimera (if six to ten). There are two notable points about this unit. Firstly, they can only take two special weapons (I'll just wait over there until the hate disappears). Secondly, the base price seems to not reflect their new 5+5 purchasing format, making them rather over costed. I'm pretty confident that this second point is in error though, and will be letting people play with what I deem to be the correct codex price.
Dedicated Transports
Chimera
Standard chimera, can take an autocannon turret.
Centaur Carrier
A fast and fragile transport, it can tow artillery if it wants to. You are really paying for speed with this, it will let you get troops where you need them quickly.
Fast Attack
Scout Sentinel Squadron
Pretty similar, except it gets to take the multiple rocket pod from the valkyrie.
Armoured Sentinel Squadron
Same, also gets the MRP option.
Imperial Navy Gunship Support
You can a single squadron of vendettas or vultures, although you can't mix the two. Gives the list some nice air support without making it possible to spam them.
Tauros Strike Squadron
Fast, all terrain vehicles. The squadrons can mix normal or the heavier venator types. These are a decent alternative to sentinels, probably better as they get some fun special rules covering movement.
Salamander Recon Squadron
Fast tanks with scout, one of the heavier fast vehicles available to imperial forces. I can see these used to add weight to fast formations of vehicles. They seem like a better version of an armoured sentinel.
Hellhound Squadron
Some various infernal canine types for your enjoyment.
Heavy Support
Hydra Flak Tank Battery
Same as always. I was hoping for interceptor and a price increase to compensate.
Ordnance Battery
Basilisks or medusa. You can mix but I don't know why you would.
Griffon Strike Battery
Some griffons.
Colossus Bombard Battery
Just the standard colossus. I think the name is an attempt to say that the chimera and russ hulls really don't matter anymore, they are all colossus mortars.
Armoured Fist Heavy Weapon Squad
A HWS in a chimera, pretty much. They will eat up your heavy slots, although if you don't use artillery you should have spare heavy slots anyway. Has the option to buy a vox-caster, which I think some people will have fun with.
Armoured Fist Cyclops Demolition Squad
You get a pair of remote control bombs mounted in a chimera. I can see these being a fun unit but I doubt they will be seen as super awesome. Walk the bombs up to an enemy and explode pretty much on demand.
Imperial Navy Air Support
Thunderbolts, lightnings or avengers bought as singletons. All fulfil slightly different support rolls.
A Few Notes on Allies
ABG lists are identical to Guard on the allies matrix, except that they are also battle brothers to Codex:IG. This makes them a nice alternative to Guard if you want some allies. For instance, you may not want extra infantry in your force and prefer to have just some vehicle support. In this case you could take a cheap command salamander (or a command russ for some more points) and a troop choice russ. This is pretty cheap, with the minimum spend for allies being 225. With this you could put in a vendetta, some artillery or hydras. I can see this being a very nice addition to many armies. The units even have extra wargear choices, like chaff for the vendetta. I think it is an excellent ally for codex Guard armies, as it allows you to fit in just one more of what you want. Say you want three manticores but still want a russ or two, this will help. Or if you want a forth vendetta squadron, or even three vendettas and a vulture, with maybe an avenger to back it up.
As for allies to take for an ABG, codex Guard seems like a good idea. A mechanised platoon would be a way to add scoring units yet still have room for six single russes in your ABG choices. Or you could use it to pick up a second vendetta, or more russes in the heavy slots. As I am a Guard player I will leave it to others to come up with good combos from other codices.
Conclusion
Well that was my quick and dirty ABG list overview. I hope that most people who have read this will now have a better idea of the list.
I really can't judge its power level yet, although it seems quite weak to me. The lack of scoring units and vulnerability to melee is quite horrible, but is made up for with massive firepower. I know a lot of people could be concerned if they see a dozen tanks across the table, over half of which are russes.
I am planning to let people tailor a bit against my army, at least at first. I would rather be on the losing end and then work out how to get better than foster ABG hate by stomping everyone. Going out in a fiery blaze of twisted metal and enemy corpses and losing sounds better to me than wiping people off the board with little resistance. I suggest that if you face a ABG you pay close attention to terrain placement, an open battlefield may spell your doom. Maybe just use bigger bits of terrain, or count small pieces as half towards the limit in the alternating terrain setup.
Please feel free to ask questions or post observations.
I hope that to increase interest in this topic, as it is a fun and characterful list with some good strengths and weaknesses. I know that IA1:2nd is a new book and probably most people have not had a chance to read it, so I shall try to offer an overview of the list and the units within. Obviously I can't just write the whole thing out, but I shall try to get the balance of information right. However, when in doubt I am going to err on the side of not posting details. My aim is to give people enough information that they can gauge their interest in picking the list up for themselves, or to not be so confused if they meet it across the table.
Also, as leman russ reviews have been done to death since the codex came out, I'm going to assume a base level of understanding about the different variants and there rolls. I may inject my own thoughts at certain points but if I tried to review all of the different weapon choices this would take forever.
From the Top - ABG Specific Rules, Wargear and Warlord Traits
The list is mostly similar to a general Codex:IG list, just with a different structure and a few special additions. As these are integral to the list and colour the view of all the units, I thought it best to outline these first.
Special Rules
There are a random smattering of rules that apply to different units but the only major one is the Company Command Tank rule. This is the ABGs version of the order system from C:IG, and although it is more limited I feel it is a characterful and welcome addition to the list. It seems like a part replacement to the ace crew skills from the old list, making the command structure play a more important role than it used to. Each command tank can issue a single order per turn, rolling on a chart to determine success. Depending on the order given, different effects can be achieved:
Concentrated Fire: This is the extra firepower order and the one that I reckon will be the most popular. It is similar in effect to the "Fire on my Target" order in the Codex. Seems like a good order for most tanks, especially for standard LRBTs against marines in cover.
Erratic Manoeuvres: This order gives the unit it is used on extra resilience in close combat. I like to compare it to the "Incoming" order, as it has the same effect of trading firepower for durability.
Full Speed Ahead!: Gives a unit a boosted flat out move, so I don't think it works on heavy vehicles. However, can be useful for getting units where they are needed quicker.
I quite like the orders they have added, they are too limited to be called overpowered and yet give the player some nice bonuses that they can throw about. As they affect squadrons, they become a much more viable choice when building a list. Good job too, as you will need squadrons if you want a decent number of russes in your list.
Wargear
Some varied upgrades for units:
Mine Plow - A more effective dozer blade that also gives bonuses when tank shocking.
Artificer Hull - Take a bonus hull point.
Track Guards - Guards for tracks, pretty simple. You get a save against immobilised results.
Improved Comms - Improved order range.
AA Mounts - These give skyfire to pintle weapons. I'm not too sure how effective stubbers and stormbolters will be against air units, although it is nice to have the option for cheap AA if you need it.
Anti-grenade Mesh - Gives you a save against grenades.
Specialist Ammunition - Command and Commissar tanks can take alternative ammunition types, with varying effects. Some are limited to certain tank types:
Infernus - LRBTs; a cover ignoring shell.
Illum - Flares to combat night fighting.
Augur - Conqueror; Similar effects to the Necron's entropic strike rule.
Beast Hunter - Vanquisher; a small blast weapon which inflicts instant death. I like being able to use blasts with vanquishers again, although in a limited scope.
Warlord Traits
I don't really want to list these as it is hard to do so without just copying the table. They do seem a good mix though, not too useless or too powerful. The one that gives your warlord VPs for destroying things with ram attacks is odd, as I never really end up ramming. Should be fun to go mad and try to ram things every once in a while.
HQ
Company Command Tank
This is what I see most people taking, unless they want to try something a bit more oddball. Can be mounted in a standard LRBT or upgrade to exterminator, conqueror, annihilator, vanquisher or eradicator. Can issue a single order a turn and has a higher BS. Also one of the few tanks that can take an artificer hull or special ammunition upgrades.
A very nice centrepiece for your force. Pick whatever variant and weapons you think best and have at them. However, in an army or russes I foresee this tank drawing a lot of fire, so best to keep it safe somewhere. My personal choice is going to be a vanquisher with artificer hull (for durability) and beast hunter shells for some retro fun. This can get expensive though, as my current vanquisher with lascannon is over two hundred points before sponsons.
Armoured Fist Command Squad
Pretty much a PCS as an HQ choice, forced to take a chimera. Very good if you want to build a mechanised list with some support elements, instead of the standard heavy tank style list. Has the option of upgrading to a company commander.
Salamander Reconnaissance Commander
Fast, cheap and can give out tank orders; this is the budget HQ. Still, you get a nice unit, if a bit fragile. Also comes with an auspex that can debuff enemy cover saves.
Captain Obadiah Schfeer
A beefed up command vanquisher with a few of the wargear choices and the tank-killers rule (I think this means tank-hunters USR). He also replaces your warlord trait with his own if he is used as the warlord. His trait gives him an aura that makes it LD checks harder for enemies.
General Grizmund
Another beefed up tank, this time a command LRBT. He gets a standard and a different warlord trait that improves a single squadrons BS. I can see this being quite nice with some of the non-blast squadrons.
Elites
Commissar Tank
Commissar tanks were demoted to elites in this version, although this does give you the ability to take more than you used to. Can only take the lighter tank types, so no punisher/demolisher/executioner. They do have access to special ammunition though, so I expect the tanks that can use them will feature more commonly. They keep the LD bubble ability too.
Destroyer Tank Hunter Squadron
Very effective AT power. I used to find these a bit hit and miss (literally) with their poor BS. However, they have picked up the twin-linked rule and are now pretty reliable.
Atlas Recovery Tank
A techpriest in vehicle form, it can also drag immobilised vehicles around. It cannot repair things itself but if used with a techpriest it buffs his repairs and gives him a bonus repair action.
Armoured Fist Storm Trooper Squad
Stormtroopers in a chimera. They can still do everything they can in the codex, although have less of a place in ABG. Still, can be fun to have some deep striking or outflanking/infiltrating units.
Techpriest Enginseer
These hold the lofty position as the only infantry unit not forced to use a transport. However, they can use a trojan support vehicle as a dedicated transport if they wish. Trojans are cheap, made of paper and can give a unit nearby preferred enemy. Nice little transport if you want to have some support vehicles in your list.
Troops
Battle Tank Squadron
These are squadrons made up of the six lower rear armour variants. The only one worth adding a bit about is the conqueror, as it is an addition over the codex types.
The conqueror is an odd little tank. The main gun is a bit weaker than the standard cannon, and only comes with a small blast. However, the tank is not a heavy vehicle and it comes with a co-axial stormbolter, so is faster and more accurate than the standard. I can see these being used to give a bit of heavy armour to a fast flanking force, as they have the speed to keep up. They will really suffer if you use them as a line tanks though. I can see some merit to using them as a command or commissar tank though, able to lead a small flanking force and use augur shells to lower armour values. Sadly, the troop style ones can't use these rare shells though.
Siege Tank Squadron
These are the heavier armour tanks: demolisher, executioner, punisher and thunderer. Pretty standard stuff.
Armoured Fist Squad
A platoon infantry squad in a chimera. These are one of the only two scoring units the list has access to, unless you get the scoring unit warlord trait that is. They have the option to trade their lasguns for laspistols, so you could get some extra attacks.
Armoured Fist Veterans
The other scoring unit. However, they come as five man squads that can purchase up to five more men. Must buy either a centaur (if five models) or a chimera (if six to ten). There are two notable points about this unit. Firstly, they can only take two special weapons (I'll just wait over there until the hate disappears). Secondly, the base price seems to not reflect their new 5+5 purchasing format, making them rather over costed. I'm pretty confident that this second point is in error though, and will be letting people play with what I deem to be the correct codex price.
Dedicated Transports
Chimera
Standard chimera, can take an autocannon turret.
Centaur Carrier
A fast and fragile transport, it can tow artillery if it wants to. You are really paying for speed with this, it will let you get troops where you need them quickly.
Fast Attack
Scout Sentinel Squadron
Pretty similar, except it gets to take the multiple rocket pod from the valkyrie.
Armoured Sentinel Squadron
Same, also gets the MRP option.
Imperial Navy Gunship Support
You can a single squadron of vendettas or vultures, although you can't mix the two. Gives the list some nice air support without making it possible to spam them.
Tauros Strike Squadron
Fast, all terrain vehicles. The squadrons can mix normal or the heavier venator types. These are a decent alternative to sentinels, probably better as they get some fun special rules covering movement.
Salamander Recon Squadron
Fast tanks with scout, one of the heavier fast vehicles available to imperial forces. I can see these used to add weight to fast formations of vehicles. They seem like a better version of an armoured sentinel.
Hellhound Squadron
Some various infernal canine types for your enjoyment.
Heavy Support
Hydra Flak Tank Battery
Same as always. I was hoping for interceptor and a price increase to compensate.
Ordnance Battery
Basilisks or medusa. You can mix but I don't know why you would.
Griffon Strike Battery
Some griffons.
Colossus Bombard Battery
Just the standard colossus. I think the name is an attempt to say that the chimera and russ hulls really don't matter anymore, they are all colossus mortars.
Armoured Fist Heavy Weapon Squad
A HWS in a chimera, pretty much. They will eat up your heavy slots, although if you don't use artillery you should have spare heavy slots anyway. Has the option to buy a vox-caster, which I think some people will have fun with.
Armoured Fist Cyclops Demolition Squad
You get a pair of remote control bombs mounted in a chimera. I can see these being a fun unit but I doubt they will be seen as super awesome. Walk the bombs up to an enemy and explode pretty much on demand.
Imperial Navy Air Support
Thunderbolts, lightnings or avengers bought as singletons. All fulfil slightly different support rolls.
A Few Notes on Allies
ABG lists are identical to Guard on the allies matrix, except that they are also battle brothers to Codex:IG. This makes them a nice alternative to Guard if you want some allies. For instance, you may not want extra infantry in your force and prefer to have just some vehicle support. In this case you could take a cheap command salamander (or a command russ for some more points) and a troop choice russ. This is pretty cheap, with the minimum spend for allies being 225. With this you could put in a vendetta, some artillery or hydras. I can see this being a very nice addition to many armies. The units even have extra wargear choices, like chaff for the vendetta. I think it is an excellent ally for codex Guard armies, as it allows you to fit in just one more of what you want. Say you want three manticores but still want a russ or two, this will help. Or if you want a forth vendetta squadron, or even three vendettas and a vulture, with maybe an avenger to back it up.
As for allies to take for an ABG, codex Guard seems like a good idea. A mechanised platoon would be a way to add scoring units yet still have room for six single russes in your ABG choices. Or you could use it to pick up a second vendetta, or more russes in the heavy slots. As I am a Guard player I will leave it to others to come up with good combos from other codices.
Conclusion
Well that was my quick and dirty ABG list overview. I hope that most people who have read this will now have a better idea of the list.
I really can't judge its power level yet, although it seems quite weak to me. The lack of scoring units and vulnerability to melee is quite horrible, but is made up for with massive firepower. I know a lot of people could be concerned if they see a dozen tanks across the table, over half of which are russes.
I am planning to let people tailor a bit against my army, at least at first. I would rather be on the losing end and then work out how to get better than foster ABG hate by stomping everyone. Going out in a fiery blaze of twisted metal and enemy corpses and losing sounds better to me than wiping people off the board with little resistance. I suggest that if you face a ABG you pay close attention to terrain placement, an open battlefield may spell your doom. Maybe just use bigger bits of terrain, or count small pieces as half towards the limit in the alternating terrain setup.
Please feel free to ask questions or post observations.