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Post by Ponen19 on Dec 12, 2012 15:25:16 GMT -5
Heres an interesting question about line of sight that came up in a game last night. But first the detaills:
After realising how painful a quad-gun is against his Fire Warriors, my opponent decided to finally put them into cover. The piece of ruin he was in is homemade and has a few gaps and peaks in the wall to simulate the deterioration of the stone. My opponent decided to put his standing Fire Warriors behind the peaks of the wall and his crouching ones behind the gaps. While fully in range of my quad-gun, he claimed that since I didn't have LoS (although I could see a few rifles and a hand), I couldn't hit them, but they could shoot back since they were in the ruins and they would "just stand up or lean out in real-life". Now since my opponent is a good friend of mine I didn't laugh at his reasoning and agreed to add +1 to his cover save while I shot at it, at least for the time being.
My question is: in the above scenario, would my quad-gun have been able to shoot at the enemy squad or would his model positioning have saved him?
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Post by Ymmot (M.I.A) on Dec 12, 2012 15:43:15 GMT -5
If it blocks LOS it blocks LOS both ways. In real life if you saw them duck behind a ruined wall...you'd just shoot through the wall. If your opponent wants to shoot back he should settle for his cover save. By his reasoning what is to stop a squad of standing guardsmen to throw themselves to the ground behind a waist high wall to block LOS then standing up again when it is time to shoot?
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Post by treadiculous on Dec 12, 2012 16:30:13 GMT -5
In order to shoot they must expose themselves.. it is at this point your quick thinking quad gun chooses to fire.. not during the time when they are not visible.. does your friend play first-person-shooters at all?.. this would immediately illustrate the flaw in his logic!
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Post by Dazza22 on Dec 13, 2012 5:43:21 GMT -5
Either you can both see each other (and he gets a cover save) or neither of you can see each other. (and therefore can't shoot at each other)
You can't have your cake and eat it too!
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Post by dougeye on Dec 13, 2012 6:14:45 GMT -5
if for example you have a custom building with 5 window holes to shoot through with the fire warriors and 5 out of the 10 or 12 fire warriors are visible because they are standing in the windows and are visible, then i believe you can shoot the quad gun because over 25% of the unit is visible. this simulatess the fact that you know they are there even though they are in cover because you can see some of them. The whole unit gets their cover save from the ruin which in the case of fire warriors is no different to their armour save i think but is useful against AP weapons. If all the fire warriors are hidden then neither can shoot, but if most of the fire warriors are set up in the windows they can shoot at the quad gun and vise versa. Also the pose the model is in makes no difference in this case because otherwise every one would build completly crouched armies lol
What is important is that you decide when setting up scenery what type of terrain the custom building is. Is it area terrain 5+save or a ruin 4+ or a strong fortification like a bastion 3+.
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Post by Ponen19 on Dec 13, 2012 17:06:14 GMT -5
Thanks for the help everyone! I'll make sure he knows this next time he tries to argue this point, which he does quite often.
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Post by WestRider on Dec 13, 2012 19:08:25 GMT -5
There is no requirement that 25% of a Unit be visible.
The LoS Rules in 6th Ed are really quite simple, even if they don't entirely make sense from a "realism" perspective:
- If any part of a given Model's Body (Head, torso, arms, or legs. Wings, tails, antennae, weapons, banners, and other purely decorative elements are ignored.) is visible from the eyes of at least one Model in the firing Unit, that Model may be shot at and removed as a casualty.
- If a given firing Model cannot trace LoS from its eyes to some part of at least one target Model's body, it cannot fire.
That's it. There are further considerations when it comes to awarding Cover Saves, but as far as whether or not you can take the shots in the first place, that's all there is to it.
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Post by magot on Dec 14, 2012 2:21:33 GMT -5
Ponen did you used a heavy quad launcher ?
because if you did, then they are barrage, and barrage does not require a line a site (you loose your BS however when firing indirect).
so there is in m.h.o. nothing what stops you firing on these guys.
please note that if there is a floor and the models are under this floor, and the hole of the blast lands on a floor, that that´s the location of the eventual hits, and the models under the floor are unaffected.
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Post by WestRider on Dec 14, 2012 13:29:59 GMT -5
He's talking about the Quad Gun you can get with an Aegis Defense Line or Bastion, not a DKoK-style Quad Launcher.
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Post by treadiculous on Dec 14, 2012 14:29:25 GMT -5
I always play the 'above the knee' rule, as this way a crouching model has no advantage over a standing model - if the cover is 'above the knee' then they are capable of taking a cover save - thus the GW craters offer a cover save to infantry but not dreadnoughts etc. Obviously a tree would cover the torso but might leave the legs exposed, but in general this rule helped us explain the cover mechanic.
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Post by badgersplatter on Dec 26, 2012 16:50:54 GMT -5
Crouching, standing etc has always seemed like a massive hole in the rules to me. If you model anything with supplied crouching legs, it can't stand up for the duration of the battle. It also can't lie down, and standing models can't crouch. I've had situations where there is an obstacle overhanging at about head height - so they can be shot at as they're visible from the head down, but can't shoot out since their eyes can't draw a line to the enemy.
Silly 40k.
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