How to hold an objective?

[yvain]

I played a 1500 point Big Guns Never Tire game last night. I still don't have many models so some of the selections were put in just so I could reach 1500. I made some mistakes and I think he did too. But I wonder about the effectiveness of some units or how to just make them more effective. Specifically, the infantry squad and to a lesser extent the platoon command squad.



My List:
CCS - Straken and 4 PG in a Chimera
Marbo
3 Ratlings
Platoon Command Squad with 4 flamers
Combined Infantry Squad - 30 troops, 3 Grenade Launchers, 3 Autocannons, Commissar
Heavy Weapon Team with 3 Mortars
Veteran Squad - Harker, 3 PG, Forward Sentries
Veteran Squad with 3 Meltas in a Vendetta Gunship
2 Sentinels both with Missile Launchers
Basilisk
Manticore

Chaos List:
Horde of Cultists
Berserks with Kharn
Defiler
Havoc Squad
Chaos Lord on Juggernaut with Rune Sword with 5 Chaos Spawns

I actually did very well and most likely would have taken it had the store not closed and kicked us out. The fire support units did a lot of damage and Harker and the Vendetta with Vets hit right where they needed too. I almost certainly would not have taken Straken in this list if I had other models, but maybe doubly foolish to do it against a Close Combat focused Army. However, if I did again I would drop the Chimera and PG for Meltas I think.


He had his Chaos Lord and spawns head straight for my infantry squad, which I used to guard my objective in a gunline. I did not realize how durable/dangerous they were otherwise I would have nailed them with the Manticore first. They were probably were not a target the gunline would have been able to deal with regardless. I feel like the infantry squad did nothing except for the three auto cannons. Their lasguns even with FRSRF do not really have much killing power or range. They get one or two volleys, but don't get many kills. They cannot stand up to any sort of assault. Basically, all they were was a speed bump/giant tempting target. Is it worth throwing power weapons in still? I have read that power blobs are dead and with challenges, I think they PWs would be picked out too easily. (The commissar did fight a pretty bad ass battle against the Chaos Lord surviving everything except the last wound and giving one wound in return with an normal weapon). I guess I am just trying to figure out what their role is. If their task was holding the objective, how do I best accomplish that? I was tinkering with the idea of changing for a lord commissar for the leadership bubble and splitting back into separate squads. Basically making a three unit buffer to slow down assault wipe. If they cannot do it, is there another unit that can?

In the same vein, my platoon command squad basically just waits there in the back to roast who ever kills the Gunline. They did put 11 templates down on the spawns so I suppose they did their job. However, they spend most of the game waiting using the occasional order or two. And were wiped fairly quickly when the spawns and lord charged. Is there a better way?

[Julian Sharps]

Well, against an assault-specialist force like some Chaos builds, it's often advisable to avoid running blobs, as your guardsmen are most likely going to die regardless, so you want to minimize your own close combat casualties while maximizing your opponent's shooting casualties.

Personally, I would drop the Basilisk and the Ratlings in favor of a basic Leman Russ, and use it to nail anything power armored (since that's the role it's best at, and its Battle Cannon ranks high on the list of things that Space Marine players like to complain about when playing against Imperial Guard). Throw the occasional cheap squad to the wolves in order to slow them down, and therefore increase the amount of time you have to shoot them. Whatever you do, make sure that if it comes to close combat, that you charge them first; it'll rob them of the momentum they need to be a serious threat.

Of course, I have no actual experience with playing against the new Chaos Codex, so my tactics might be out of date (some of them, especially the sacrificial squads bit, go back to the old codex), so take everything I've said with a pinch of salt or two.

[gamma016]

Yeah I agree with what Julian is saying, although I have never played against chaos. I also think that keeping the chimera is probably best, especially if you plan on useing meltas. Since they are so strong and have such shot range you are going to want to protect them. Also are your sentinels scout or armored? If armored they are not really worth their points in my opinion. However, if they are scout sentinels then outflanking them is something you might want to consider. When I use them, I usually bring them in close to one of their back units and kill it off first. Than he has to either split some of his forces off my main army or risk being attacked on both sides. Also I don't know how mobile chaos is, but I tend to steer away from units with minimum ranges like basilisks or manticores. This is just because I mainly play dark eldar and tyranids and they can be at you feet pretty fast.

[Sgt. Rock]

In my experience, with a few exceptions, the strength of the Imperial Guard is in the quantity and diversity of special weapons we can take. Now to be fair, 20 or 30 lasguns at close range with FRFSRF can make a right awful mess out of anything that isn't an MEQ, but from what I've seen, it's the heavy weapon teams, the command squads full of plasma guns, the grenade launchers, the melta vets, that do most of the damage dealt by our infantry. Obviously our tanks are a huge part of it, of course, and even with the new rules for hull points and heavy vehicles, Russes are still dead killy lords of the battlefield.

I think Julian is right about not running blobs against assault lists; even only at ten men per squad, it's nice to have multiple options for capping objectives, and they allow you to divide your fire as you see fit. Also, if you run a CCS and more than one platoon, if you blob up your infantry, you run out of people to give orders to. In the list I'm working on, I plan on running one three squad platoon blobbed up (most of the time) as well as a two squad platoon mounted in Chimeras for racing up to grab and hold objectives. I've seen people do well with blobs, but I've also seen a lot of success had with six or eight separate infantry squads. Yes, they're more likely to run away (if they don't have commissars) but it's that many more targets for your opponent to deal with, and as I said, it gives you the flexibility to divide your fire as needed.

I also agree with Julian about losing the rats and Basilisk in favor of an LRBT. Sniper rifles aren't worth squat against power armor, in my experience, and while that Earthshaker is nice, a Battle Cannon does just as well against Marines; it still instakills them, it still denies them an armor save, and it still wounds on a 2+. It's also harder to kill, and has more guns.

[yvain]

I appreciate the tips. I am tracking on the Ratlings for this one. I was trying to reach the 1500 points so everything had to go in. I did not consider that about the Leman Russ. I have one, but it is still in the box not constructed.

My sentinels are scouts. I never get much out of them, but like the rattlings they are a threat people tend to go for. And they are a cheap in the grand scheme.

I see your point for the close combat army thing. 3 speed bumps would have beat out the one that unit ended up being. The more I think about it, the more I realize that chaos lords team was way to powerful for me to even consider surviving hand to hand. I did not know enough of their units and should have made that squad the priority along with his defiler. (I am still pretty new) A single storm eagle rocket could have killed all the spawns easily. Perhaps then the squad would have had a better chance.

I was tinkering with the idea of switching the commissar for a Lord Commissar with a camo cloak and throwing in a Defense Line with Quad Gun or lascannon. I just read somewhere that with that setup you can go to ground every turn and order get back into the fight if necessary. Putting the lord behind the cannon or gun gives a BS 5.

Are power weapons in the blobs worth it? And is it power sword or axe? With I 3 it usually means I am going later anyway so it seems like axes are the better choice

[Sgt. Rock]

Any kind of marine, especially Chaos, will wipe the floor with just about anybody but dedicated assault units in a melee. They're just mean. I haven't seen the new codex yet, but even basic Chaos marines, historically, have been a bear to deal with in CC. And yes, if you're going to strike after he is, a power axe is the better bet. Trouble is, with the challenge system, that poor sergeant is going to be singled out and munched pretty quick. On the other hand, he can be used to keep an Aspiring Champion or worse busy for a turn so that they're not chewing through the rest of the squad.

Spending all those points on a Lord Commissar just to park him behind an Aegis line is a poor idea. For less than half the cost, that squad of Ratlings could camp out there and do just as well. Your LC should be joined up with a blob, probably, or maybe some vets, to make full use of his abilities.

You'll get the hang of things, and you'll start to learn the strengths and weaknesses of the different armies. Chaos has some of the most potent CC units in the game. Tau are pretty much the end all, be all with regards to shooting. Any flavor of Space Marine... well, they're just cheaters. I'd suggest putting that Russ together, though. Once you get that puppy humming, you're in business. Good luck!

[yvain]

I had my next battle last night. Against Space Wolves, I made some switches. It was a 1500 point game. I actually made a huge mistake and did not put in enough models and was about 65 poinyd point. I always plan my list with battle scribe mobile and I selected an executioner instead of a battle tank.

My List:
CCS - 4 PG in a Chimera
Marbo
Platoon Command Squad with 4 flamers
Combined Infantry Squad - 30 troops, 3 Grenade Launchers, 3 Autocannons, Commissar
Heavy Weapon Team with 3 Mortars
Veteran Squad - Harker, 3 PG, Forward Sentries
Veteran Squad with 3 Meltas in a Vendetta Gunship
Leman Russ BT with Heavy Bolter
Basilisk
Manticore

I don't know Space Wolves that well, but he had something like this:
A Rune priest and a Grey Hunter Squad in a Drop Pod
Grey Hunter Squad in a Drop Pod
Grey Hunter Squad with a Wolf Lord attached
Dreadnought with Assault Cannon and Heavy Flamer in a Drop Pod
Dreadnought with Plasma Cannon and Missile Launcher
Long Fang Pack with several missile Launcher in a Razorback

We ended up with hammer and anvil with mission Purge the alien. So no objectives to hold, however it still played out very similar. I put a gun line down on the one side guarding my heavy artillery and made him come to me with pie plates galore. I intentionally left one side of my deployment zone weak and with just a mortar team and the Leman Russ. Unfortunately, today was the day I learn that drop pods can come in his first turn. He placed a dread and a grey hunter + Rune Priest Squad right by the Russ and the mortar team intending to sweep down and kill the gun line and artillery. I was really worried and did not know how I was going to deal with them.

Needless to say things did not go his way, the Leman Russ took hit after hit and refused to die until turn 3. Lucky for me Harker showed up and I moved my CCS chimera over there and 7 plasma guns managed to slow them down with Marbo dropping the killing blow. Pie plates continued to punish his army and I got a real lucky break when his last drop pod he tried to put next to my artillery scattered off the table. He misshaped and I placed the drop pod on the other side oft eh table next to his long fangs which were crying from too much pie. In the end, we called it when he has 5 Grey Hunters of one squad left, a razor back and the drop pods. There was also one solitary grey hunter in a close combat fight with Marbo, but it was a draw when we called it. I ended up winning 8-2 and the only unit I lost was the mortar team and the Russ.

So turns out you were right. The Leman Russ while it did not get many kills, was huge because of its staying power. What is funny is that the mortar team was never really a threat and he went after it anyway. But their act of staying alive slowed them down even more. And the blob squad worked much better when I could do damage to units that were getting in close range. They made short work of that grey hunter pack, with the help of a pie plate. I think I am starting to get that picking the right targets is almost the most important part. A lot of lessons learned.

[Sgt. Rock]

Good show! Space Wolves can be a tough army to deal with. And yes, target priority is a HUGE part of the game. Knowing what to shoot, when, and with what unit is important to winning with any army. And sometimes, as you say, even if a unit doesn't really do much damage, if it attracts enough firepower, it frees your other units up to dish out their own hurt. In my ork army, I have two lobbas. The unit, with ammo runts, costs 59 points, but the amount of firepower that gets directed at those little buggers is worth at least three times that. Something as hard as a Leman Russ? They can stick around for a good long time, and Marines *hate* that big ol' pie plate that denies them their precious power armor saves.

Well played, and here's to many more victories!

[hendrik]

congratulations on your win against the space wolves! are you sure your opponent didn't forget a unit? to me that list seems more in the 1200-1300 pts region, unless going way OTT with upgrades on units.
Anyway, leaving that small force all alone on your flank was a superb tactic! drop pod armies usually suffer from a lack of mobility once their pods have landed and this tactics forced his to split up his force in order to deal with your leman russ. what upgrades did the grey hunter pack coming down had with them? With the new rules of disembarking it shoulnd't have been that difficult for your opponent to land his pod close enough and then disembark in a way so he could deliver some melta/plasma-love into your rear (no pun intended). Personally I absolutly hate deepstriking/droppodding armies since they can dictate a lot of how a battle goes if played well. I must say i like your new list more then i liked the old one. not sure about the basilisk though, it's minim range always bothers me. have you thought about taking a medusa instead?

[yvain]

I am not sure what his upgrades were. He had meltas in all three squads I believe. And a terminator attached in one squad, which he said was an HQ. I know the basic units of the regular codex, but the special chapters throw me for a loop. Its like grey hunter=tactical squad, blood claw=scouts, and long fangs=devastators. For the Russ, if I remember right he missed badly in the first one and then one melta shot and immobilized it. He finally assaulted it and wrecked it.

He really got punished by dice rolls the whole game. He failed 4 armor saves out of nine off a manticore hit. Later, he rolled a one on a terminator save when I hit his squad with the earthshaker. That shot killed one Marine and we figured the other 5 shots would be taken by the terminator. No such luck! His dreadnought failed to charge my chimera. He failed a morale test for a marine unit. I got some lucky rolls. I made all, but one gets hot rolls. And I used bring it down for twin links and fire my target to get around his cover and some of those gets hots. What really seals his fate was the missed drop pod. I would have had a hard time dealing with those guys dropped right next to my artillery and behind the blob. I got really lucky there with the misplaced roll mishap as well.

Minimum range is no long an issue in 6th. I like the range of the Basilisk and it ensure people head my way. It nice to hit a guy turn one before he has a chance to do anything.

The best is Harker's unit though. I outflanked it right next to the drop pods. Getting that many plasma so close quickly is a god send. Even better, with stealth, Camo cloaks, and the forest grants +3 cover save. He kept shooting a frag missiles with the two remaining long fangs for 3 turns and they always did nothing. Now I know how marines feel with the 3+.

[Sgt. Rock]

Without going downstairs to retrieve my Space Wolves codex from my car (because I'm lazy ) I can tell you a bit about their organization. Yes, Grey Hunters roughly equate to tactical squads, but with a little more oomph in melee. Blood Claws are actually more analogous to assault marines, though with less weapon skill. They come in either big blobs with jump packs, or stuffed into a Rhino, and they exist to get stuck in and chew through people. They have a stupid number of attacks, as I recall; something like 4 or 5 on the charge? I think. And yeah, Long Fangs are like Devastators, except that they can split their fire between two targets, IIRC. The ones that are more like scouts are Wolf Scouts, oddly enough, except that they have the full WS and BS of regular marines, and I believe they can come in from any board edge when they outflank. They tend to be melee oriented, as well.

Space Wolves offer a very balanced army; they're vicious in melee, they offer the typical Space Marine shooting capability, and they've got some pretty burly psykers. If I wasn't building a Guard army, I might go for them. Y'know, if I didn't mind taking long, hot showers after every game.

Having the dice on your side really helps; I've won and lost a lot of games solely because the dice gods either blessed or cursed me or my opponent. Like the time a 30 man blob of DKoK cut down an entire 10-man squad of tooled-up Nobz with lasguns using FRFSRF. That sucked. A lot.

[hendrik]

doesn't not getting to distract your BS from the scatter work annoying with the bassie once a unit is within 36"?
As far as space wolves go I might say i've got some expierience, them being the only army I played with for 7? maybe even more years. Space wolves are a close quartre fighting army. we don't excell in close combat (leave that to the templars, bloodangels, or even grey knights) but we're the absolute kings of 12". due to counterattack space wolves are just as good at getting charged as they are on charging themselves. In addition to this every grey hunter pack has the option to take wolf standards, a wargear item that allows you to reroll all 1's you roll during a single assault. If you play this in combination with a nifty wolf guard or HQ choice with a 2+ armour save you have an absolute killerunit when charged. in addition, a grey hunter pack that consists of 10 grey hunters has the opotrunity to take a second special weapon (flamer, melta, plasmagun) for free. If you prefer the unit to be led by a HQ's choice or wolfguard and still want to have them in a droppod or rhino you'll miss out on this, but hey, those wolfguard can buy combi-weapons so you're good.
With the changes to how a psychic hood works space wolves now have one of the most powerfull anti-psycher tools, and a runepriest is a deadly weapon, especially if you know what army you'll be facing so you can tool his psychic powers for the job. going against a deepstriker/skimmer army? murderous hurricane now has a 24" bubble around your model in which every deepstriker, skimmer,etc has to take a dangerous terrain test (while not so dangerous per se, this can makes a HUGE area denial zone. another nifty power is jaws of the world wolf, hitting every model under a 24" straight, hair thin line. models on that line have to make an initiative test and if they fail they are immediatly removed from play.no invunerable saves, reanimation protocols, look out sir, or other rule, they are simply removed. my rune priest once took out 5 lych guard, 8'ish necron warriors and his tooled up necron lord. while he was being protected by my wolf guard terminators.

[yvain]

God some of those abilities sounds rough. He used living lightning on me twice and one time he rolled a 1 for the number of attacks. (thank god!) I have always been reluctant to charge because close combat never works out for me. Good thing I kept those Wolves at a distance.

What differentiates Space Wolves from Blood Angels? From my understanding the different types are like regular marines with kind of a focus:
Blood Angels are fast attack CC oriented with jump pack troops
Black Templars are heavier CC
Dark Angels are Shooty and can take terminators as troops
Space Wolves by your words are kind of a hybrid shooty with strong charge and counter charge?

I have a few Space Marine Models I got from Black Reach that I never used because of an Afghan Deployment, then suddenly it was 6th edition. For fun I was considering making a 500pt Allied Force. I have Catachan models so I was going to run Raptors as the Chapter. Since they are raven guard and there is no codex I was considering using vanilla. However, I have been throwing around the idea of picking one of the specialty marines because they have access to divination psychic path. The way I look at it, beside divination the two weaknesses I would have to address would be close combat and long range objective holding/contesting. Right now the list is looking something like this:

Librarian
Tactical Squad with PC and Flamer in a Drop Pod
Assault Marines or Dreadnought

The Assault or Dread would play a speed bump role. I would attach the Librarian to the Infantry Platoon to ward off challenges and the Tactical Squad could deep strike in to disrupt enemy objectives, critical targets, or just hold another objective. I suppose I am leaning towards Blood Angels or Vanilla, but its still just an idea at this stages.

[Sgt. Rock]

Blood Angels are pretty nasty in CC, and yes, they are quite fast. Next to vanilla marines, Space Wolves offer probably the greatest tactical flexibility; I've got a friend who actually runs Raven Guard but uses the Space Wolves codex to represent them. Space Wolves are much more competent in CC than vanilla marines, to be honest. Vanguard Vets are nice, but unless they're going up against an army that's weak in CC (or orks) standard assault marines are kinda "meh." If you're going to take something like that, take the Dreadnought; it'll probably survive longer and do more damage.

[hendrik]

i'd +1 on the space wolves as well. but as true space wolves then. the reason being twofold:
from a tactilcal point, greyhunters are better then the average tactical squad. A tacical squad has both a special weapon (range 6"-24") and a heavy weapon (range 24"-48") but can only use the heavy weapon if it hasn't moved. Grey hunters on the other hand don't get to option to that heavy weapon, but if they numder 10 models they can get a special weapon for free. while this may sound like the tacticals have superiority here it actually doesn't. you're either wasting 9 marines their shooting to fire that heavy weapon, or having 1 marine that can't fire since it moved. wolves on the other hand keep a constant rate of fire as long as you're within 24". and this is before you start adding sweet updates such as the wolf standard that allows you to reroll all 1's during a single assault phrase for that unit. put a TDA armed character with a PF with them and see how he rapes his opponents in combat (his 2+ save suddently got all but unfailable, his PF practicly became an auto wound etc). In addition, the space wolf rune priest has acces to some of the most powerfull psychic powers in the game, jaws of the world wolf ald murderous hurricane being some of them. these powers can put certain armies in a world of pain, not to mention we also have acces to divination and others.

second: from a fluff point of view the wolves are one of the most trusthworthy allies you can get. remember armageddon? it were the wolves that objected to all the imperial guard soldiers being slaugthered after the event (heck logan even killed a grey knight grandmaster for doing so). It were the wolves who went to war with the flesh tearers immediatly after a conflict because the flesh tearers started tearing up the loyal guardman and citizens after the opponent had been whipped out. It was the wolves who stayed at montberg spaceport, allowing the world to be evacuated during the tyranid invasion despite imperial command ordering everyone to leave the citizens of that planet to their fate. where most chapter protect the imperium it are the wolves who protect the imperial citizens.

last but not least. I wouldn't play such a small droppod force since A) it'll be vastly out-numbered since it doesn't have the numbers or strength to roll up an army.
B) you're manticore and basilisk may find themselves firing on their own allies, should your opponent decide to castle up.

[yvain]

Hendrick you types TDA, what does that mean? I never heard any of that fluff about the Space Wolves and did not know there was even another war for Armageddon that wasn't with Orks. Still I have always been a bit more partial to the Raven Guard, specifically because I like the idea of their tactics.

I think I need to really figure out what I am trying to do with that squad to make the final determination. In my mind, I am feeling the dreadnought could camp behind the blob to provide support. While the librarian could attach to the blob itself to buff it with powers and with a strong IC character.

For the single drop pod, I wouldn't leave them by itself. I guess you could say my general strat is to hold a gun line in the back field and then move units in by other means. I have another Vendetta I plan to put another squad of melta vets into. Then a 5 man Stormtrooper Squad. (all yet to be finished being built) With the drop pod, I would have five methods of bring troops into the the points of friction. (Harker, 2 Vets mounted in birds, DS Stormes, either AS or TS Marines)

Note the numbers might not add up. The Marines are just a fun additional option if I want to mess around with the ultimate list or go into 2500 games.

You do bring up a good point about the IDF being blocked by friendlies, I suppose it has yet to come up because I always have a good number of targets. Again I still need to figure out what I am trying to accomplish. I will have to play a few more games. I just moved half way across the US and I am still getting settled in. Need to find a good group nearby and get started.

[WestRider]

TDA=Tactical Dreadnaught Armour, the full name for Terminator Armour.

And I will second the recommendation for Space Wolves as Allies to Guard. I use them all the time, and the two Armies fill in each other's weaknesses so well. Two great tastes that go great together!

[hendrik]

the first war of armageddon was about a chaos incursion, leading tot he eventual summoning of angron, the deamon-primarch of the world eater legion.
here's some info from the wiki:

"The war also unleashed an internecine conflict in 444-445.M41 between the Inquisition and the Space Wolves Chapter of Space Marines, which took issue with the Inquistion's decision to quarantine and sterilise the entire surviving population of Armageddon to maintain the Imperial policy of secrecy concerning the existence of Chaos and its daemonic minions. The Space Wolves' Chapter Master, the Great Wolf Logan Grimnar, saw this action as an outright betrayal of the Imperium's highest ideals and the Space Wolves initiated a violent campaign against all Inquisition efforts to cleanse the population of Armageddon. The conflict eventually resulted in an orbital battle over the Space Wolves' homeworld of Fenris between the Space Wolves' Chapter fleet and an Inquisitorial fleet under the command of the Inquisitor Lord Ghesmei Kysnaros. Kysnaros was slain, but a compromise was eventually reached between the Inquisition and the Space Wolves that restored harmony between the Imperium's factions. But as a result of the First War for Armageddon's aftermath, the Space Wolves have never again trusted the Inquisition and move to frustrate Inquisitorial designs at every opportunity."

this quote alone shows how much the wolves care about the small guys of the imperial guard. all other chapters approved/didn't oppose the cleansing of the loyal imperial guard, and is IMO the best reason why to ally space wolves