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Post by christopher300 on Jan 22, 2013 11:39:24 GMT -5
I didnt think thy would be able to chane fluff so drastically
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Post by Trooper One-Nine-Seven-Four on Jan 22, 2013 11:43:22 GMT -5
I didnt think thy would be able to chane fluff so drastically It started when Ward first wrote the Space Marine codex with lines essentially saying "all Space Marines want to be like the Ultramarines" and jabs at the Blood Angels and other non-codex chapters for being freaks who are tortured by the fact that they can never attain the perfection of the Ultramarines, etc. As Blood Angels were my first army, I was not impressed. And then GW let him write the BA codex... Google "Mat Ward spiritual liege"...
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Post by vegna on Jan 22, 2013 13:15:23 GMT -5
but theres other rumors that GWS have banned him from writing codexs..codexies...army books since the backlash they got.
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Post by Wraelis on Jan 22, 2013 13:36:37 GMT -5
Really? That would be interesting. I can't see them banning him from writing stuff anytime soon though. He sells models with his codices.
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Post by Trooper One-Nine-Seven-Four on Jan 22, 2013 13:36:52 GMT -5
but theres other rumors that GWS have banned him from writing codexs..codexies...army books since the backlash they got. Sadly, I'm starting to think that this just may be wishful thinking... I certainly won't complain if it's true, though, and if the fluff disaster Ward's responsible for can be fixed by the other writers who take over those books he's handled...
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Post by Paradill on Jan 22, 2013 13:37:23 GMT -5
Games Workshop HAVE NOT banned Mr. Ward from writing Codices (correct plural). Nerd rage has very rarely stopped anyone from doing anything, other than visit the Internet.
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Post by emptyhat on Jan 22, 2013 14:06:05 GMT -5
Just out of curiosity as I have been away from the hobby for some time. What is wrong with that guys work on necrons and Grey Knights etc? As far as the Necrons are concerned Ward pretty much took their established fluff and defenestrated it and then proceeded to replace it with pure derp. Instead of being relentless killing machines, whose leaders only retain a bare glimmer of the personality they had as Necrontyr before the C'tan transferred their essences into the Necron bodies, we now have Necrons that politically scheme against each other and send flowery notes to Inquisitors... It seems that he was told (or maybe decided) that Necrons needed more of a human psychology and so they crossbred them with Tomb-kings. Like Troopers says they switched around who is pulling the strings with the C'Tan and the Necrons. A lot of people were vocal about how much the C'tan had been shoved in to the 40k lore before so the fact that they now act a lot more like the Avatar of Kaine should please them. There was also a special character who travels through time and destroys whole worlds just so he can avoid embarrassment in court when his predictions are wrong (that one did make me wretch a little). You can also ignore all the fluff changes and play as Shriven. Which are Necrons who have lost all there personalities and are being partially controlled by the unfeeling computer intelligence of their tomb worlds. Oh, there were also some complaints about High Marshal Helbrecht getting his hand cut off by a Necron special character.
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Post by Trooper One-Nine-Seven-Four on Jan 22, 2013 14:11:15 GMT -5
Oh, there were also some complaints about High Marshal Helbrecht getting his hand cut off by a Necron special character. Yes. By the Stormlord, to "teach Helbrecht a lesson about the humiliation of defeat," or somesuch. I can attest that Reds' eye twitched when I revealed this particular piece of fluff abomination/derp to him in person... <.< >.>
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Post by Ymmot (M.I.A) on Jan 22, 2013 14:19:52 GMT -5
I like most of the new fluff written for the Necrons.
There I said it.
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Post by Trooper One-Nine-Seven-Four on Jan 22, 2013 14:22:30 GMT -5
I like most of the new fluff written for the Necrons. There I said it. Report to death chamber re-indoctrination chamber 7645195887 for neural reprogramming. Failure to comply will be met with fuzzy animals. And tea.
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Post by emptyhat on Jan 22, 2013 14:23:59 GMT -5
Yeah, but he is a character who hasn't had any play in years. This is something that got his story interacting with the universe again and was part of setting up a new rivalry.
He shows up in the first story where his Templars get trumped during a boarding action they initiated and he loses his hand, not really a big deal for a space marine.
Later in the codex when that Necron SC is about to launch his big campaign his fleet are suddenly ambushed by Helbrecht's chapter fleet and smashed in space, space tactics have always been Helbrecht's speciality since Codex Armageddon.
The story isn't about spanking a space marine hero it is about setting up a grudge, the Necron guy might have wanted to humiliate him but in the end he is the one who is humiliated. Hopefully when 2014 roles round and we get a new BT codex we'll see the story continue, which will be good (as long as it doesn't involve the High Marshal teaming up with Garzshkul to fight the Necron dude).
The second story is one of the only times the Necrons are on the losing side in their codex and Helbrecht is the one who gets to do it. One of the reasons I bothered to pick up the new Codex Necrons was to see if that story was as bad as you and Reds were saying. Templars being my first 40k army. I didn't really see what the fuss was about.
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Post by Trooper One-Nine-Seven-Four on Jan 22, 2013 14:33:29 GMT -5
It wasn't so much the Helbrecht story, which was really more of a cherry on top of a giant bowl of derp, as it was just absolutely throwing out most of what had been established about the 'Crons since they first became a faction in the mid-90s. The thing that appealed to me about them was that they were an implacable, silent horror who were nigh-impossible to stop, that rarely (if ever) left survivors in encounters. Also, the whole tie-in with the concept of Pariahs, and the harvesting of life essences for their C'tan masters, and the description of even the most powerful of Necron Lords (who were the most powerful members of the Necrontyr society) only retaining a shred of their former personalities, was very powerful stuff to me, and was one of the main reasons I started collecting them in the first place.
Now they speak, scheme, and send polite notes to their adversaries. It's just derp. And the dropping of the Pariah stuff from the fluff, and the C'tan not playing to role that had been established for them. It was just too much.
I will admit that I do like most of the new units that were added with the new Codex, and I will grudgingly give Ward credit for them. But the molestation of their fluff just about put me over the edge.
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Post by Ymmot (M.I.A) on Jan 22, 2013 14:37:26 GMT -5
I like most of the new fluff written for the Necrons. There I said it. Report to death chamber re-indoctrination chamber 7645195887 for neural reprogramming. Failure to comply will be met with fuzzy animals. And tea. My god man, you're right! Quickly, to the re-indoctrination chamber. We have no time to lose! ... Now have a seat and make yourself comfortable, Trooper. It will only take me a minute to attache these electrodes. By the way, how do you like your brains... poached or scrambled?
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Post by Trooper One-Nine-Seven-Four on Jan 22, 2013 14:41:09 GMT -5
*Douses Ymmot in fuzzy animals, tea, and fuzzy animals that are drinking tea*
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Post by emptyhat on Jan 22, 2013 14:45:31 GMT -5
It wasn't so much the Helbrecht story, which was really more of a cherry on top of a giant bowl of derp, as it was just absolutely throwing out most of what had been established about the 'Crons since they first became a faction in the mid-90s. The thing that appealed to me about them was that they were an implacable, silent horror who were nigh-impossible to stop, that rarely (if ever) left survivors in encounters. Also, the whole tie-in with the concept of Pariahs, and the harvesting of life essences for their C'tan masters, and the description of even the most powerful of Necron Lords (who were the most powerful members of the Necrontyr society) only retaining a shred of their former personalities, was very powerful stuff to me, and was one of the main reasons I started collecting them in the first place. Now they speak, scheme, and send polite notes to their adversaries. It's just derp. And the dropping of the Pariah stuff from the fluff, and the C'tan not playing to role that had been established for them. It was just too much. I will admit that I do like most of the new units that were added with the new Codex, and I will grudgingly give Ward credit for them. But the molestation of their fluff just about put me over the edge. I can agree with you about that, although I wasn't into the new models. I was hoping that they'd add stuff that drew off of the mathematical side of the Necrons robotic nature, maybe more geometric shapes as vehicles like puzzle cubes or something. But my guess is that it wasn't Matt Ward that locked himself in a room and came out with this but more like him being given a short list of options to work with or being part of a focus group that came up with this stuff and then told "Ok now work the fluff and the rules around it and meet these criteria at the same time."
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Post by RedsandRoyals on Jan 22, 2013 14:46:35 GMT -5
I think the fact that Crons got a decent update at all is cause for celebration, regardless of opinions on the fluff. I like to see somewhat neglected armies getting an update, unless they become pants-eatingly stupid (like the GK), or get utterly shafted (like the Sisters). Wolves and DE got solid updates, and the DA one is pretty decent too, so the scorecard for unloved codecies getting good updates isn't half bad at this point.
My two biggest complaints against the codex fluff at the time (and currently, now that I think about it), are that I don't like the precedent that the total revision of the Necron fluff has set, and I felt what they became was a bit lazy. When it comes to fluff, I'm a fan of seeing it evolve over time as opposed to a mass revisions of a faction whenever the hell a codex writer wants to do it. Partially that's just how I like to see the story behind a faction I play told, but also, if I invest time and money in an army, it'll be because I like it's background, it's aesthetic, and everything else about it. If the army's background gets a total makeover when the new rules come out, then that's kind of a kick in the teeth.
On the other hand, I can see why they felt like they had to elaborate and expand with the Crons, and how that expansion had to have some revision built in. Part of the issue with a soulless unknowable horror is that, while it makes a great enemy (providing an "Other" that is objectively unknowable), it's not exactly going to inspire a lot of people to relate to that faction on some level and say "Yes, I want to spend a lot of money on that". The Tyranids pull it off well enough because they have a good amount of variety in their units and models, and there's always some appeal to the "Overmind Bugzilla" style of army (see the Zerg, for example). When it's just sort of robots, it doesn't inspire as much. I think the flavor they added in the new codex gives the crons more of a personality, and more of a reason for people to play as them.
As for it being lazy, that's just a personal quibble of mine. I feel like chroming Tomb Kings and shooting them into space was a waste of potential in a few ways, but, again, that's just me.
Reds
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Post by Ymmot (M.I.A) on Jan 22, 2013 14:48:27 GMT -5
*Douses Ymmot in fuzzy animals, tea, and fuzzy animals that are drinking tea* So help me I will fit the entire circumference of your skull into my mouth. For what purpose I can not say, perhaps only to gnaw on your scalp for a little while. The necrons had almost no fluff to work with, now they have plenty...and only in a few cases does the old stuff get in the way of the new stuff...it is mostly just the Pariahs and C'tan that cause a conflict. It is still only the necron lords and nobles who have a personality, and how much of it they retain can very dramatically...the rest of the army is souless killer robots just like they have always been. The addition of special characters and the fluff written for those special characters seems to be what is bothering people. We had a very tiny narrow view as to what the necrons were in the beginning, based almost entirely on the Imperium's point of view. You can't really say these things never existed just because we had never heard of them.
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Post by Trooper One-Nine-Seven-Four on Jan 22, 2013 15:26:58 GMT -5
Then there's also the fact that by retconing the fluff, Ward retconned other people's work in the process. A big part of "Caves of Ice" is now no longer relevant due to the dumping of the Pariahs.
"Tomb Kings in SPAAAAAAAAAAAAACE!" is just utterly lazy to me. There were things that could have been done to play up the horror/mystery aspect of the Necrons, but instead they went down the goofy route--kind of like what was done with the Terminator and Alien franchises (GW imitating art?). As anyone who has seen my modeling of new 'Cron stuff will (hopefully) realize, I have gone out of my way (well head swaps to be honest) to avoid a lot of the frilly Tomb Kings-esque head gear that many of the new kits incorporated. I console myself by telling myself that my 'Crons are from the Severed, but it seems like a small compensation for the ditching of just about everything that drew me to them in the first place.
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Post by Ymmot (M.I.A) on Jan 22, 2013 15:47:48 GMT -5
"Tomb Kings in SPAAAAAAAAAAAAACE!"
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Sgt. Rock
Captain
Loungin' like a lizard.
Posts: 231
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Post by Sgt. Rock on Jan 22, 2013 15:50:07 GMT -5
Honestly, if Ward writes the Ork codex, I expect I'll see some pretty busted rules, but I also expect him to hopelessly rape their fluff, as he always does. Ghazghkull will get his butt whipped by Marneus Calgar and sent crying into the far reaches of the galaxy, to whimper and scheme and be all butthurt about how he can never be an Ultramarine, no matter how hard he tries. Wazdakka will be eaten by Necrons, and the Grey Knights will wear Old Zogwort as a hat.
And I'm quite certain that he will either refuse to unbreak or break even further Snikrot's ability to come in and eff things up like the boss he is.
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Post by RedsandRoyals on Jan 23, 2013 12:05:24 GMT -5
"Tomb Kings in SPAAAAAAAAAAAAACE!" Point sustained. Reds
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Post by Trooper One-Nine-Seven-Four on Jan 23, 2013 12:16:22 GMT -5
That Necron Lord was one of the worst models that was ever made during that period of time by GW...
As far as the Monolith goes... It's one of the worst models to build ever made by GW...
<.< >.>
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Post by dougeye on Jan 23, 2013 15:27:51 GMT -5
i think the ork codex will be released inline with an apoc update, mabye some sort of 4th war of armaggedon with thraka vs yarrick once more also reading a bols thread and aparently for 40k its not demons in feb its the 4 new flyers. If it looks cool enough i may invest in a new tau flyer, but rumour is its fast attack so probably a pirahna with a flying stand lool, i want a manta for £70 with all the units as an apoc release lol
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Post by Trooper One-Nine-Seven-Four on Jan 23, 2013 16:50:51 GMT -5
I could have sworn it was Warriors of Chaos for February, and then the rumored 4 flyers in March...
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Post by Paradill on Jan 23, 2013 17:04:00 GMT -5
Daemons are for April aren't they? Flyers match and WoC update next month. But I am plucking this from a memory made of sugar cubes and old tea bags so I may know nothing.
Flyers aren't anything too exciting from what I hear, just handing out toys to those that ain't got them yet.
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