Big trouble in little hawkrin's lists

[Lt. Col. Hawkrin]

He ya'll been having issues with my game a lot so I thought i'd ask here. Most recently in a 750pt game against dark eldar. I was massacred on turn 3. Here is my list.

HQ:

Squad with Senior Officer w/plasma pistol and power sword and 4 guardsmen w/lasguns and one vox caster.

Troops:

Vet squad with 6x lasguns, 1x grenade launcher, 1x lascannon and vox caster.

Vet squad with 6x lasguns, 1x grenade launcher, 1x lascannon and vox caster.

Vet squad with 6x lasguns, 1x grenade launcher, 1x lascannon and vox caster.

Heavy Support:

Leman Russ Punisher w/Pask, Hull Lascannon and side sponson heavy bolters.

Where did I go wrong? I don't play guard much since 6th ed so any help is good please.

[zeke]

Well, what is in his DE list?

Some of the problems I see here is that you have some points that could be used in better places (CCS and the Punisher).

The biggest one that screams out to me is the Punisher. 265 points, if I counted correctly. The punisher, while not a bad tank in the IG armory, is certainly not the best. I'd recommend taking a MBT, or a demolisher.

The company commander also. I have found that power weapons on your commander isn't always good. This is because he should not be getting into combat. Instead, give his squad something to dish out fire power. Maybe an autocannon and some GL.

As for the troops, you should really use the fact they can take 3 special weapons. So, take 3 GL or any other weapons (my personal favorite are meltas), and throw an autocannon in with them, and have them rain fire on the DE.

[Lt. Col. Hawkrin]

Sorry about that, forgot to add it. Here is his list. Also My punisher was the only thing to survive the game technically. I agree in hindsight the lascannons in my squads and the extra weapons on my commander did nothing. I was assaulted turn 1 so i was pretty much screwed from there on.

HQ:
Duke Siliscus

Troops:

9x Wyches 1x Hektrix w venom blade and phantasm grenade launcher in raider

8x Wyches 1x Hektrix w venom blade and phantasm grenade launcher in raider

Elite:

3x Kabalite Trueborn, 2x splinter cannon in venom w splinter cannon

3x Kabalite Trueborn, 2x splinter cannon in venom w splinter cannon

[macknight]

Dark Eldar suck against armor, you have about none.

I recommend taking a blob squad of 20 with Grenade Launcher and Auto Cannon, a vox maybe a commissar. platoon Command Squad with flamers in a chimera for counter assult.

Company Command Squad with Lascannon(use that BS 4), vox, GL to issue orders on the blob, then itself.

Leman Russ Battle Tank, and a vendetta.

Then maybe a squad or 2 as advance squads to grab objectives.

[zeke]

How did the game play out? What was the size of the board? And how were you assaulted in turn 1?

[Lt. Col. Hawkrin]

Here is the battlefield.



Just realized that the length was not legit so I shouldn't have been able to be charged first turn. -.- le' sigh

He stole initiative and I wanted cover from the barricades so I moved close to them.

Also i'm not hip to the abbreviations so spelling things out may be necessary with me.

[yvain]

Macknight's list idea is pretty good. If you don't have the models, just a few weapon tweaks could still make it more solid. I only count around 640 points is the barricade a aegis defense line?

Remember to fill out every squad with their full special weapons (SW) and weapon to target match. Most Dark Eldar (DE) armor is 6+ or 5+ and their vehicles are AV 10 with some Armor Value (AV) 11 on fronts. Autocannons (AC) or heavy bolters (HB) would have been all the heavy weapons you need. LCs were a waste because all the AV is 10. The vox casters as well because you could only get two orders out anyway. Company Commander's gear is useless as already stated. Dropping all these weapons and gear will save you around 135 points. You could have brought another Vet squad of the same type and put 3 flamers or 3 grenade launchers (GLs) on each with 2 more SW for the Company Command Squad (CCS). This allow would vastly improve your firepower/effectiveness.

The Punisher isn't a bad idea, its just a bit expensive for such a small game and it is short ranged. It doesn't need a LC its power is in more shots so a HB would have been fine. You really did not need Pask as the units you were facing were pretty small. With the HB the Punisher should have gotten around 8 kills with the tank at ballistic skill (BS) 3 or one dead enemy vehicle. Anything left would have ate it to overwatch if it kept charging. I would be fine with it if you have lots of other long ranged firepower.

Also looking at your deployment, even though it was illegal there is no need for you to advance that far. You should have jumped on the hill your CCS is on. (is that a hill?) You really want to put as much distance as possible between you and the fast close combat army heavy army even if you are going first. What I would do is include a few devastating long range weapons that force him to advance into range of my guns that first turn. Trade the LC in the heavy weapon teams (HWT) for AC and the Punisher for a Leman Russ Battle Tank (LRBT or BT).

Then make my platoons un-attackable by range or better yet just by putting them on the opposite hill crest. If you put several ACs on the hill crest and hid your troops on the other side, you could take shots at his vehicles and keep your main bodies protected. Any vehicles that survive have fewer targets when they reach you. On your turn move to the other side and unload at him while in close range. That many lasgun blasts and GL blasts should kill or force a retreat on any of those units. And then you get overwatch when he charges. Note when you move as long as you don't move the AC models they still shoot full BS.

[Lt. Col. Hawkrin]

I really like his list as well. I think I may try it out minus the vendetta since I don't have one. I also may substitute Heavy Bolters for the Autocannons. Since I roll horribly and think the three shots would be better then two.

It seems to me as well that the more I play 6th edition the more I realize that cover is OP as ballz.

Also the Punisher did kill the HQ's whole squad besides him when I did finally brought it to bear but yes it seemed like a waste after the fact.

As for the barricades no they were just barricades not aegis. Though now that you mention it that sounds like a much better use for the points then using Pask.

The biggest problem I had with his vehicles was the jink saves. Also I have another question about cover but I'm not sure if this is the place to ask it.

[yvain]

Cover is money, it keeps guardsmen alive I just got an aegis line and painted it with a Quad gun. I am going to attach the Commissar to it.

Remember the HB has to glance on 5+ where the AC would be 3+ with a better chance to one shot kill it because they are fast and open topped 4+ vehicle roll wrecks. In addition, there is more range to the AC. I think you will get more wounds with them. If cover is an issue, use the fire on my target order.

Be careful about blobbing, the DE will probably cut through the squad in a turn. If you have a few separate squads you have speed bumps. Then again you can make better use of your orders if you blob up. It is a judgement call.

What is your cover question?

[Lt. Col. Hawkrin]

In that picture which squad gets cover?

[yvain]

They should both get a cover save. Group A gets a save from what ever barrier it is behind. Then judging by line of sight, group should get a cover save as well at least from the other unit. It is explained on PG 18 of the rulebook that even intervening models grant a cover save, which can be explained by the other unit spoiling the targets aim. The only way they don't get a save is if incoming is indirect. Then incoming is from the center of the blast and can skip cover.

If group B is on top of something and not obscured even by group A they maybe they do not. Depends on by how much and what you and your opponent agree upon.

[Lt. Col. Hawkrin]

What if group A wasn't there and group B was just behind but not up against the terrain.

[WestRider]

You go by true Line of Sight. Get down and take a look from the firing Unit's perspective. Any Model that has at least 25% of its body (head, torso, arms, and legs) concealed, from the point of view of at least one firing Model, gets a Cover Save.

If it's an intervening Unit, the space between the Models counts, too, you basically lay a straightedge along the top of the Unit and everything below that counts as concealed.

[Lt. Col. Hawkrin]

Oh ok that makes a ton of sense to me now. I was firing from a tank and he was not obscured at all so he shouldn't have gotten any cover. Ok thanks a lot.

[deadbeatbert]

One thing I learned quickly about Dark Eldar is that they can be quelled very quickly by Hydra Flak Tanks.

They only cost 75 points each and get you quick kills on skimmers. The new 6th ed rules hurt them once you're out of skimmers to shoot at, but for the price you pay they I find them well worth it, mate.

[Commisar "General" Dr Phillips]

But the Hydra doesn't have Interceptor, doesn't that make it need 6's on anything other than a flyer? o.o

[WestRider]

Nope. Skyfire Weapons without Interceptor also get to fire normally at FMCs and Skimmers.

[Sgt. Rock]

Which, honestly, for the cost isn't that bad. Hydras are cheap, the models look badass, and frankly, I think they're fluffier than an ADL. I'm not a huge fan of the ADL, because friggin' everyone has one these days. The whole "Anyone can buy fortifications out of the main book" further serves to muddy the metagame, just like allies do. I'd much rather take a Hydra. In fact, I think I just might...

[Commisar "General" Dr Phillips]

Huh, good to know! I was looking at the Hydra Platform in the Aeronautica book and thought it might be worth investing in as well.

[hendrik]

the main "problem" with the hydra is the lack of interceptor as an anti-flyer unit. it works perfectly well against normal skimmers such as landspeeders, DE vehicles, tau (although their disruption pods are a PITA),eldar, and necrons

[WestRider]

Doesn't the Hydra Platform in Aeronautica have Interceptor as well? Or is that just the Sabre platforms?

[hendrik]

the hydra platform from the aeronautica book has the interceptor rule, but it's only AV10 and has 2 hull points if i recall correctly

[Commisar "General" Dr Phillips]

I just take comfort knowing once a flyer is gone in the game that the tank isn't entirely useless, however with it being able to fire at skimmers and FMC it makes it a little better but even they would be gone after a while, depends where you want to go with it I guess, even the platform would need to be placed right so it can continue to fire.

[Sgt. Rock]

There's one other aspect of the Hydra tank that makes it a steal; it denies targets a Jink save. Quad guns don't do that, Vendettas don't do that. The Hydra also has a much longer range than a quad gun or the lascannons on a Vendetta. Tack on a heavy stubber, give it a heavy bolter (or flamer, whatever floats your boat) and you can handle anti-infantry duty once the flyers have been toasted. I'm still convinced that even without Interceptor, the Hydra is a better choice than a Vendetta or a quad gun if you're looking for specifically anti-air capability.