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Post by sspear on Apr 15, 2013 21:09:56 GMT -5
Has their been any instance of a space marine essentially joining a chapter for any reason? Or two chapters combining to become one?
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Post by RedsandRoyals on Apr 15, 2013 21:16:29 GMT -5
None that I can think of off the top of my head. Chapters aren't like IG regiments, where they're merged if understrength. The closest you'd have is the Deathwatch, where every chapter sends marines to serve with them for some time, and Blackshields will occasionally show up after their chapter has been destroyed, and simply serve until their death.
Reds
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Post by Paradill on Apr 15, 2013 21:30:56 GMT -5
Take the Crimson Fists, even when taking almost 90% casualties, it never even crosses their minds to join another chapter, loyalty to The Crimson Fists is bred into every marine.
Closest instance I can remember is The Blood Angels when they had a big old scrap with Chaos being severely under strength and Danté calling upon their successor chapters to provide neophytes to help rebuild. Even then, it is the same gene seed lineage and only neophytes who could still be indoctrinated to be Blood Angels battle brothers that were provided.
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Post by emptyhat on Apr 15, 2013 22:03:42 GMT -5
What if there were two chapters founded from the same progenitor chapter and they were ruined within one or two generations, perhaps during the same conflict?
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Post by RedsandRoyals on Apr 15, 2013 22:28:29 GMT -5
That's basically the only circumstance when it would even be an option, but even then...
You have to remember that each SM chapter is very, very much focused on their individualism, what makes their chapter in particular special. These idiosyncrasies, no matter how minor, can take on a holy, revered aspect, to the point where violating them would be considered blasphemy within the chapter. Even something as simple briefly obscuring the chapter symbol while repainting your armor is considered dishonoring the chapter and the machine spirit of the armor. To leave your chapter is to turn your back on it's histories, it's heroes and victories, it's sacrifices, as well as your battle brothers, living or dead. It's really something that's done where there are only a few survivors (like, single digits). That's the concept behind the Blackshields, who are essentially seeking an honorable death while serving the Emperor.
Reds
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Post by sspear on Apr 15, 2013 22:43:21 GMT -5
Haha i like that this sparked so much discussion. I personally am a star wars nerd and my fav race has always been the mandalorians like boba and jango fett. But almost no two mandalorians are the same and have no defined color scheme ao i thought of like if a many chapters are cut down at the same time and they join forces and fight and work together despite the fact that they are different
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Post by RedsandRoyals on Apr 15, 2013 22:50:49 GMT -5
Well, then your easiest option is a task force consisting of whole squads from multiple chapters. Both in the wars for Armageddon, and during the 13th Black Crusade, there were multiple space marine chapters operating in relatively small warzones. Chapter X would deploy it's full strength, Chapter Y would send a task force of a half dozen squads, and Chapter Z sent a tac squad and a trio of Predator tanks. While normally they'd deploy by themselves, there were times where they'd pick and choose squads or chunks of companies from various marine chapters and throw them together in a task force to deal with a situation. It would be a temporary arrangement, and the squads would all be homogenous (i.e. no mixing marines from different chapters in the same squad).
That said, you might have to do a bit of reading on which chapters like and dislike one another. Some, like the DA, don't play well with others.
Reds
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Post by sspear on Apr 15, 2013 22:57:38 GMT -5
Thats kinda what i wanted was to put diff types of marines in the same squad lol have the flaer of the squad be a salamander while maybe the seargeant was an ultramarine and the regular bolter guys be a mix of chapters. Kinda like deathwatch but they dont paint over their armor kinda thing?
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Post by RedsandRoyals on Apr 16, 2013 1:43:59 GMT -5
Yeah, hate to say it, but that's not something that's done fluff wise. That said, you're still free to do it anyway. Reds
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Post by Adkenpachi on Apr 16, 2013 3:54:18 GMT -5
If you want to do it for some kind of kill team setup you could fluff it out like their were all in seperate fights being deafeated and ran into each other or whatever then decided to link up for one fight to finish it...
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Post by Paradill on Apr 16, 2013 5:16:24 GMT -5
Even then you're limited to a single small squad for it to fit fluff-wise. Most probably limited to chapters of the same Primarch as well.
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Post by cheminhaler on Apr 16, 2013 9:10:45 GMT -5
Yeah, hate to say it, but that's not something that's done fluff wise. That said, you're still free to do it anyway. Reds It can and does happen with renegades but there's no reason the Imperials can't do something similar. The latest Gaunts Ghost book I read had a Silver Skull, a White Scar and an Iron Snake fighting alongside the Ghosts. Renegades can congregate together in mixed bands, like Vaanes from the later Ultramarine series, who used to be Raven Guard and leads a gang of chaos allied marines. What if there were two chapters founded from the same progenitor chapter and they were ruined within one or two generations, perhaps during the same conflict? Even then there are examples of this not happening. White Consuls and Black Consuls are both Ultra successor; the Black Consuls were all but destroyed in a mystery attack and only a handful remain. The White Consuls haven't absorbed the Black Consuls; in fact the BC want to reforge the chapter. Remember even a handful of marines can make a difference. At least in the fluff...
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Post by treadiculous on Apr 16, 2013 10:25:36 GMT -5
Considering the low numbers of models in a marine army it might be okay
There is only a need for 1 HQ and 2 units of 5 men to form the core of the army, after that it could be filled with tanks, dreadnoughts, aircraft etc.
I think that certain armies could feature even less - blood angels could take a squad of the black guys as troops and then a dreadnought counts as troops as well.
That said, I would be a lot of interesting fluff to explain and would be a I look forward to reading it!
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Post by RedsandRoyals on Apr 16, 2013 11:15:32 GMT -5
@chem: There may be a circumstance in a single battle where, for whatever reason, marines of different chapters end up fighting in an unofficial squad out of convenience, but it would be a one time thing, until that particular skirmish or whatever was finished. And remember, Abnett tends to bend fluff more than most 40k writers. Reds
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Post by emptyhat on Apr 16, 2013 11:45:54 GMT -5
Or you could set your chapter in 50k. When things are getting pretty desperate
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Post by Paradill on Apr 16, 2013 12:05:00 GMT -5
There's nothing to stop you doing anything you want to do. If you want to do it then our opinions don't matter anyway and we'll still say it looks cool if it does.
This doesn't fit into established fluff though. Not at all.
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Post by RedsandRoyals on Apr 16, 2013 13:35:52 GMT -5
There's nothing to stop you doing anything you want to do. If you want to do it then our opinions don't matter anyway and we'll still say it looks cool if it does. This doesn't fit into established fluff though. Not at all. Pretty much this. If you want to really go to town, dig in on researching SM chapters, and bitz up each marine so they've got plenty of gear and accessories that fit whatever chapter their from. I doubt you'll get any complaints if it's a showcase-style army like that. And even if you do get complaints, it's just toy soldiers. Reds
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Post by cheminhaler on Apr 16, 2013 13:37:35 GMT -5
@chem: There may be a circumstance in a single battle where, for whatever reason, marines of different chapters end up fighting in an unofficial squad out of convenience, but it would be a one time thing, until that particular skirmish or whatever was finished. And remember, Abnett tends to bend fluff more than most 40k writers. Reds That he does. In fact in this book (Salvation's Reach) there is a heavy implication that the times of mass Space Marine planetary assaults are truly over and that they have severe manpower shortages, hence only 3 marines responding to Gaunt's calling in a favour. But I reckon it is more to do with marines being committed to more important campaigns, like defending the Cadian Gate, to bother with the Sabbat Worlds.
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Post by sspear on Apr 16, 2013 15:08:54 GMT -5
Hmmm i thought of a cool backstory. Chaos gods take one champion from each founding chapter and put them on a world to face challenges that line up as the opposite of what their chapter values. They all meet up and together can take down eaxh challenge in maybe twos or threes and at the end they all meet at the center of the planet and face down a greater deamon prince together
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Post by jenburdoo on Apr 17, 2013 0:10:31 GMT -5
I have a friend who built a "penitent" chapter -- basically the SM version of a penal legion. It took in Space Marines who (for whatever reason) had been banished from their original chapters, giving them a place to regain their honor alongside other "lost souls."
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Post by Paradill on Apr 17, 2013 0:23:48 GMT -5
I have a friend who built a "penitent" chapter -- basically the SM version of a penal legion. It took in Space Marines who (for whatever reason) had been banished from their original chapters, giving them a place to regain their honor alongside other "lost souls." Banishment is rare, but even were it possible, I seriously doubt that the inquisition would allow a formation of marines that had been banished for misconduct. The only way a marine can regain any honour is by going on a death quest, a mission so deadly that they aren't expected to survive. If they live, their honour, titles, rank and place within the chapter are restored, if they die then they do so in honour. If a marine ever committed an act so severe that a death quest wouldn't absolve him, he'd probably be considered a traitor and executed.
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Post by sspear on Apr 17, 2013 21:49:26 GMT -5
I kinda like the penal idea. With the imperium being worn down all across tthe board the inquisition sees that it not only takes care of the marines but makes them all easily trackable and can go and do other things then worry about a coupe asartes. They can just assign a watcher to alert the inquisition if anything bad happens other then that theyd be a glorious weapon
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Post by RedsandRoyals on Apr 17, 2013 22:59:02 GMT -5
On the other hand, a penal legion of space marines is just begging to be corrupted and turned traitor, and I doubt there's anything the Inquisition could do to stop them short of a planetary bombardment if they all decided to swap sides at once. That's one of those things the Imperium would file under Bad Ideas if they had any sense.
They rarely do, though.
Reds
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Post by Paradill on Apr 18, 2013 2:12:04 GMT -5
To add to my point: Space marines either live by the code of their chapter as a loyal Astartes or turn renegade, those who walk the line between the two are unlikely to be simply banished. Those that are in between are so rare that any 'penal' unit would be lucky to number full ten marines. At the very least these Astartes would be stripped of their chapter iconography, accolades and purity seals, but most likely stripped of their colours too. Not saying dont do it, just saying bear that in mind
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Post by emptyhat on Apr 18, 2013 15:14:54 GMT -5
Renegades that didn't get corrupted by power and chaos but joined the Tau?
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