Discussion Thread: Growing Up With Magic

[RedsandRoyals]

I figured we might try a brainstorming thread, where we can bounce ideas off one another and discuss general themes and the like. Think of it as a way to get the creative juices flowing (or at least trickling) even if the specific topic isn't relevant to your fluff.

Now, on to the heart of the core of the meat of the matter. I was thinking how a society would be affected as it developed (technologically, socially, economically, etc) in a world where "magic" of some kind isn't unheard of. My frame of geek reference is fairly thin here, but I'm not familiar with any genre or game where you can really see how a civilization develops from the feudal era, through the industrial era, and into what we would consider "Modern" or even beyond that. It's a pretty big scope to cover, which is why I don't think anything covers it in great detail, but I'm interested if there are any books, shows, etc out there that have a modernish setting where magic of some kind is commonplace, and they've put some thought into how a society would develop in that situation.

It would probably be a good idea to discuss what I mean by "Magic." It could be the conventional kind you get in fantasy settings, such as DnD or LotR, or it could be some sort of sci-fi equivalent, such as Psykers in 40k or even Biotics in the Mass Effect universe. Basically I'm referring to some sort of innate capacity among some percentage of the populace to alter their surroundings without using technology or brute muscle. I'm leaving it pretty open ended because I'm also interested in different types of "magic" that are out there in Fantasy or Sci-fi, but I am NOT referring to powers gained through tech implants or whatever.

Now, some random thoughts I've had on the matter...

- How would it affect technological advancements? I could see tech development being hamstrung early on if magic is common enough, and is versatile enough to serve multiple purposes in everyday life. That said, eventually I figure some enterprising souls would set out to effectively "democratize" magic by building machines that can replicate the outcomes of various spells or whatever. Hence, if a magician can easily engrave something in a stone block, it might take a little while for someone to develop better chisels or techniques for more efficient manual engraving, but it would still happen, and probably somewhere that didn't have regular access to the magic in question.

Another example would be gunpowder technology. In Dragon Age, for example, most of the human nations haven't bothered developing anything like explosives or cannons, because they have battle mages. It's an outside race that distrusts magic that has developed firearms and the like. With militarized magic, I can see parallels between crossbows vs longbows. The longbow may have a faster reload time and the ability to be arced over obstacles more effectively, but the crossbow is easy to produce and train vast quantities of levies to use in a short time. Similarly, I can see war magic still having a place, even up until the modern time, but the ability to put that destructive power in the hands of the rank and file would be too good of a chance to pass up, I think.

- How would it effect societal laws and development? If those who could wield magic were highly regarded, would they be some sort of priesthood who's authority gradually becomes more and more challenged by the development and spread of technology that can produce the same outcome of their spells? Would that lead to a culture clash, or actual bloodshed? On the flip side, if magic users are ostracized but tolerated out of necessity (like 40k psykers), would more bloody minded governments simply cull populations of magic users as technology began to replace them? Would there be laws against certain spells or even whole schools or magic? Would there be international treaties regulating the use of magic in war (sort of like a Geneva convention for fireballs and magic missiles)? Would magic users be considered a class of citizens unto themselves, with their own laws and restrictions? If a society did initially distrust or discriminate against magic users, would they develop more liberal attitudes over time?

- What effect would it have on economies? This is is particularly interesting if alchemical magic is in play, where people can effectively create valuable substances or minerals from ones deemed worthless. Would they use this to try and increase supplies of raw materials and foodstuffs around the world, thus creating cheap and abundant resources (and possibly accidentally ruining demand in the process)? I can certainly see it triggering a fast shift to paper money if someone can just forge gold from lead or other substances. I can also see them accidentally overusing their ingredient materials, and suddenly those become more rare and expensive, possibly even leading to shortages of the materials that are produced from said ingredients.

- Would they attempt to recreate magic with science? Would scientists attempt to develop machines that could either harness magic automatically for tasks like manufacturing or medical use? Would they attempt to develop tech that can effectively turn someone into a magic user, (or if magic is distrusted, try to "cure" users)? If it was possible to do this, it would revolutionize manufacturing and engineering, entertainment, medicine, and just about every other aspect of society one could imagine. Would there be social pushback on such developments, especially if magic users are considered an "elite"? Would they try to stamp out this kind of development? Alternatively, if magic was frowned on, would this sort of tech still spring up, even if it was a sort of black market? Would the uses in everyday life outweigh the societal repercussions? Finally, if magic is dangerous to use (like in 40k or Dragon Age), would technology focus on making it safer for users, and if they succeed, what kind of impact would that have on the society?

Alright, I'm done with text walls for now, so have at it! I've thrown a lot of random thoughts and questions out there, so feel free to pick and choose what you answer. There is not set "universe" I'm talking about here, so feel free to play with different angles for each question.

Reds

[Soap]

Im writing this assuming magic was / is here on earth.

I think that magic would really hamper any technological advances. If you could just 'wave your wand' and magic up what ever you needed, technologies wouldn't be needed to develope, and the economy would suffer highly.

Technology: Unless they are very limited amount of people with magic abilitys, research and development would be very slow, and maybe even unnessesery to some degree. They would always be someone who wants to push the boundrys of what mankind can do, but what if someone like Issac Newton had magic ability? Would he have 'discovered' gravity? I'd say no. He attention would be improving his magical abilitys and learning new tricks. So with that, mankind is set back a couple of years at best with the Law on physics.

Economy: I think this would struggle much the same way as technologies. Magic would replace demand on things like food. They would be no hunger or starvation unless this power was limited. They would only be a need for money and trading if you didn't have magical abilitys.

War: this would still be the catalyst of technological development. Shields to protect from magic would defiantly be high on the do-do list. Again depending on what power a magician had, would determine how wars would be fought. If magicians had mega power, wars could be settled by simple duels - my wizard is better than your wizard. Or if its like LoTR, where wizards have a more 'direct' focus of power, then wars would be much how they are now - either mass magic people fighting, or massed troops, with support from mages / wizards / whatever you want to call them.

In a nutshell: If they where few people with magic powers (of verious levels of power), I think our advancement would be hampered by a couple of centuries. If a high number of people had this power, then the planet would still be locked in the distant past.

[Kassill]

Reading through this a few shows/movies came to mind that could be of some value to some of the questions you asked.

I initially though of X-men, while not "magic", many of them do have the ability to manipulate the world around them and even specific objects/elements (ie, fire, metal, weather, etc) and their struggle to fit within a set modern society with these powers/"mutations".

As I read further I also though of the anime series, Full Metal Alchemist. Again, while the show calls it a "science" the alchemy portrayed seems more like magic to the viewers (arcane circles, manipulating objects and elements around you with the snap of your fingers). It also has a lot of these alchemists as "State Alchemists", soldiers for the State who go to war alongside foot soldiers, using their abilities as weapons (ie, fireballs, exploding people, etc). It also shows a bit of the world they live in, where things still seem to be locally made (for the most part) by mom and pop style shops (ex, Winnry and her Grandmothers auto mail). They also seem to be in a 1940-50's style era and ruled by the State Government. While they have certain technologies, cars, land line phones, fire arms, they lack airplanes, televisions, and other more modern equipment/technology. Science is alchemy in this world and every scientist end game is an arcane stone known as the philospher's stone, an object which can create and manipulate without cost.

Another which I though of (which may be a stretch, but just hear me out) is the Naruto series. The setting is a japanese feudal society in which the village is governed by the kagi (Hokagi in the case of the Village Hidden in the Leaves). The Hokagi is the greatest Ninja of his time, and his army are all ninjas. These ninja draw there power from an unseen energy within them known as Chakra, and combined with the proper hand signs and chakra control, they can perform, summon, and manipulate themselves, others, and their surroundings/environments along with different elements (ie, fire, water, earth etc). While they are the sneaky traditional ninjas from our past, they seem to be as a sort of rogue magician (again, I know it may be a stretch). While most of there abilites seem to be offensive or manipulative, some use there chakra to perform different forms of healing. As far as technology, from what I have seen (only a few seasons) they possess grenades, televisions, radios/phones, etc, but again everything seems to be either locally mom and pop made or produced somewhere away from the main setting. While they do have grenades (mostly smoke from what I've seen), they do not possess any kind of fire arms or explosives (not a traditional explosive, they are paper bombs), instead using kunai knives, swords, shurikens, and jutsu (chakra +hand signs). The only automobile we see in the show is used by a wealthy criminal in a far off land, while everyone else seems to travel by foot/wagon. Societys are ruled by these ninjas, and wars are fought be them. As far as I can tell, no real science exists (unless you count developing new jutsu).


I can think of a few more of these, but I'll leave you with that for now. I know I really didn't answer any questions, but rather gave you some examples of what I though you were talking about in case you hadn't seen them. I'll come back another time and see if I can give some of my thoughts on magic in society.

[jenburdoo]

Ah, Reds, you definitely want to read the Lord Darcy series by Randall Garrett. It's an alternate history series with two divergence points:

One - Richard the Lionheart did not die in a siege in 1199, but survived for another couple decades, so that John never became king, the Magna Carta was never written, Richard's nephew Arthur inherited the throne, and by the 1960s the Plantagenets are still in charge -- not only of Britain but of France, the Americas, and the Holy Roman Empire. Poland is the antagonist country.

Two - Magic is real, and has been codified into a science with its own principles and theories, to the extent that science as WE know it does not exist, but many devices and techniques we think of as technological are accomplished with magic instead. Lord Darcy (an expy of Sherlock Holmes) is entrusted with a top-secret device that uses magic to cause a filament to glow and be reflected from a mirror -- ie, a flashlight. His partner Master Sorcerer Sean O'Lochlainn is a forensic magician, able to preserve bodies and perform tests on evidence. Sean is also a professor in his spare time, and lectures Darcy on whatever principle he's using to solve the mystery.

Oh, and in one story, the murder victim has a private lab and was trying to learn those principles of the universe that do not rely on magic, such as chemistry. He is roundly denounced as a kook by his family.

In terms of changes, as of the 1960s-80s (when the stories are set), the general technological feel is of the late 1800s. Guns exist, but electricity doesn't. It's similar to gaslamp fantasy and steampunk, in a way. Also, the nobility is still in charge, and the Catholic church has a major role in vetting magicians, testing them to make sure they are untainted by black magic (sorcerers' licenses are countersigned by the local bishop).