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Post by stovrose on May 30, 2013 9:25:56 GMT -5
HQ: Company Command Squad w/ Lascannon, Standard - 85 Troops: Infantry Platoon - Platoon Command Squad w/ 4x Flamers - 50 - Infantry Squad w/ Commissar, Grenade Launcher and Autocannon - 100 - Infantry Squad w/ Grenade Launcher and Autocannon - 65 Troops: Infantry Platoon - Platoon Command Squad w/ 4x Flamers - 50 - Infantry Squad w/ Commissar, Grenade Launcher and Autocannon - 100 - Infantry Squad w/ Grenade Launcher and Autocannon - 65 Heavy Support: Leman Russ - 150 Fortification: Aegis Defense Line w/ Icarus Lascannon - 85 Total: 750 Trust me on this one. I read this and had a sort of small epiphany, Julian Sharps deserves the credit to this, he showed it to me . PCS squads with 4x flamers are FANTASTIC anit-assault squads! I'm now thinking that taking this in all of my lists with maybe adding in a PW just for that extra punch and allowance to assault first for the extra attacks.
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Post by Aeon on May 30, 2013 11:17:37 GMT -5
I'm not familiar with 6th edition, being a very poor lad. Without posting any stats, can you tell me what the Icarus cannon does?
Another piece of advice for my good friend Vyn (AKA Sharps haha), is to maybe add in a heavy flamer in there. That extra point of strength and extra point of AP makes a galaxy's difference when rolling to wound and penetrating armour. Think about it.
A regular flamer wounds an ork on a 4+ and penetrates his armour. A heavy flamer wounds on ork on a 3+ and penetrates and 'ard boy's armour. It also penetrates Tau carapace armour, SM Scout armour, enemy Guard wearing 'pace, some aspect warriors, and now Necrons since they don't have 3+ anymore.
Heavy flamers are the god-weapons of destroying an advancing assault squad
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Post by stovrose on May 30, 2013 11:28:39 GMT -5
Icarus Lacannon is a Lascannon that can shoot at flyers for full BS and gets a free shot at one enemy reserve when they come in.
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Post by Aeon on May 30, 2013 11:30:07 GMT -5
oh, like an AA gun
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Post by Julian Sharps on May 30, 2013 21:19:34 GMT -5
The reason why I didn't use heavy flamers is partly because I could get four flamers for the same cost (and special weapons slots aren't exactly in short supply in a command squad), and I was trying to make the list as efficient as I could, which isn't easy with only 750 points to mess around with.
That said, I think it covers all the bases nicely for its point level (even got some AA in there just in case Necrons show up). The Icarus Lascannon is a good buy for Guard, since it's a simple matter to twin-link it, and the extra strength and AP help.
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Post by WestRider on May 30, 2013 22:52:12 GMT -5
Those quad Flamer PCSs are just awesome. You need to give the Officer a Bolter to get the full effect, tho, since the FAQ added range restrictions to Casualty Removal. The Icarus Lascannon, tho, is unfortunately kind of lame. There are almost no situations where it's better than a Quad Gun.
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Post by stovrose on May 31, 2013 9:26:46 GMT -5
Range restriction in the FAQ? Is this in the 6th edition FAQ?
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Post by stovrose on May 31, 2013 10:05:13 GMT -5
Q: When making a Shooting attack against a unit, can Wounds from the Wound Pool be allocated to models that were not within range any of the shooting models when To Hit rolls were made (i.e. half the targeted model are in the shooting models’ range, and half are not)? (p15) A: No.
I found it
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Post by christopher300 on Jun 3, 2013 9:44:47 GMT -5
I believe they can if at least one of the weapons is in range though. So for example if a heavy bolter is in with a squad of lasguns and the target is partially in range of lasguns then all are in range (because heavy bolter has 36 range)
I think that is right
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Post by WestRider on Jun 3, 2013 12:41:09 GMT -5
That's correct. And is why it's good to add a Bolter to that Flamer Squad, because lets you Allocate Wounds from any of the Weapons out to the Bolter's 24" Range instead of being limited to the 12" Range of the Laspistol that the Lt defaults to.
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Post by stovrose on Jun 5, 2013 6:01:36 GMT -5
I am going to have to respectfully disagree. Pg 14 of the rule book, The Wound Pool in the shooting phase section: "Finally, total up the number of Wounds you have caused. Keep the dice that have scored Wounds and create a 'pool', where each dice represents a Wound. If there are Wounds with different Strengths, AP values or special rules, keep them separated into groups of Wounds in the pool. If all wounds are the same, the Wound pool will consist of only one group." The important part to take away here, is the separation of wounds by Str, AP, Special Rule. In the 'To Hit' phase we determined how many shots and hits by each weapon. Lets say, 10 lasguns got 2 shots and 10 got 1 shots and 2 heavybolters got 3 shots each. This would result in 30 lasgun. shots and 6 heavy bolter shots. Average, 15 lasgun hits and 3 heavy bolter hits, 6 lasgun wounds and 2 heavy bolter wounds. In this scenario you have 2 completely different weapons, the shooting player determines which the defender shall save against first. Heavy Bolter then lasgun. Saves are thrown and we move on with our lives. Where the above FAQ question comes into play, would be if lets say that after taking saves against lets say the heavy bolter, there are no more enemy models no longer in range of ANY lasguns (IE within 24", I understand this is not possible with the above scenario, bare with me I didn't want to type another). The lasgun wounds empty out of the wound pool and do not wound. BUT, if at least 1 shooting lasgun is still in range (at least 24") of an enemy target model, ALL lasgun hits are considered to be in range. So, how does this effect our bolter added to a flamer squad. Both a flamer and bolter have the same stat line, S4 AP5. However, according to page 52, template weapons have the ignore cover special rule, which means the flamer wounds will go into a separate wound pool group to be resolved either before or after the bolter, your choice. This will never make a flamer able to wound a model that is NOT able to be under at least one of the templates when the number of hits was determined. I'm not saying that they were under the template, I'm saying outside of the suedo 8" range of the template's possibilities.
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Post by WestRider on Jun 5, 2013 11:39:19 GMT -5
Nope. You keep the different profiles in different categories, but the way it's worded, they still all form one Wound Pool, and Wounds from that Pool can be Allocated to any Model within Range of at least one Weapon that fired from that Squad.
I'm at work and don't have time to hunt up the citation right now, but we hashed it out here on the board when that FAQ first came out, and that thread has all the details.
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Post by stovrose on Jun 6, 2013 5:27:15 GMT -5
Hm... I shall begin looking.
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Post by cocyxgaming on Jun 6, 2013 21:21:56 GMT -5
I'm a big fan of the 4 flamer PCS squad. I use it as either an anti-assault unit, or put them in a vendetta and drop them to clear an objective late game. i play against a DE player a lot and he had to completely stop using his jetbikes as my PCS would just demolish them. it's even good if they get charged as you would get 4d3 auto hits from the overwatch against any unit charging them.
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Post by WestRider on Jun 6, 2013 21:57:22 GMT -5
OK, back home and have more time to hammer this out. The key point is actually in The Wound Pool section that you quoted, where it says that the different Strengths, APs, etc. form separate groups within the Wound Pool.
There are different groups, but only one Wound Pool.
Now, that FAQ says nothing about those different Groups, it just says that Wounds from that one Wound Pool can not be allocated to Models that were out of range of every firing Model.
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Post by Captain Zapp Brannigan on Oct 19, 2013 0:30:44 GMT -5
I love the ambiguity these rules can have on our wonderful game I truly hate people who sit on the fence and don't pick a side however I can see merit to both arguments. At the end of the day I am a realist (often at my own expense during many a game ) and couldn't let myself take wounds out of a 20xman guant squad that covers half the board if they are more than the 8" away from the flamer, it just isn't practical in my mind.
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Post by Captain Zapp Brannigan on Oct 19, 2013 0:37:46 GMT -5
An easy way to avoid this dilemma is to use a bare bones squad as bait, let them get assaulted and mauled in the En turn, then use that super awesome 4xFlamer PHQ mop up and burn all the tightly bunched up En assualters It doesn't matter what I bait my opponents with as they will always dive into assault even if its against a basic guard squad IOT get into combat and avoid getting shot at. If you don't believe that your En has enough attacks in his assault units to take out a 10 man squad then simply field a special weapons squad with either flamers, GL or snipers for the same points value and then they're sure to kill them all! This tactical 'brilliance' is brought to you by Captain Zapp Brannigan: "If we can hit that bull's-eye, the rest of the dominoes will fall like a house of cards...Checkmate."
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Post by gamma016 on Oct 19, 2013 11:31:59 GMT -5
I have run into this same problem with the range FAQ. Now I don't have my rule book with me so I'm sorry I won't be able to use any so acidic quotes.
In the rule book it states that when a shooting attack is made, if you were in range of the enemy unit when rolling to hit but the model you were in range of dies in the to wound rolls, your wound goes to the next closest model even if it is out of range. So for an example if you have a guy with a laspistol and a lasgun in the same squad, and they shoot at an enemy squad twelve inches away, both gun roll to hit as they are both in range. However if the lasgun shots kill off all models within twelve inches of the laspistol, the wounds caused by it goes to the next closest model even though it is no longer in range.
The FAQ states that if NO model is in range of the next model to be wounded then the wound does not transfer back. So for example if it were two laspistols both are in range to hit at the start of the shooting however you cause two wounds and only one model is within the twelve inch range of either laspistol than only one model is killed even though two wounds were caused.
So here is where the controversy come in. However the way I read it, no much has changed. It reads to me that if you had four flamers before the FAQ came out then you could cause wounds to any model in the squad you were firing at so long as all flamers were in range when to hit rolls were made. However now it states that you can only deal wounds so long as the enemy model is in range of one of the models in the shooting squad. This means that four flamers alone can only cause wounds to enemy's within range of at least one of your flamer models. Now if you add in a bolt gun, which has a much longer range they can now be allocated to anyone who the bolt gun is also in range of. Remember though, this does not change the range of your guns. They must be in range to hit before there wounds are allowed to be allocated back.
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