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Post by WestRider on Sept 7, 2013 18:51:54 GMT -5
Got a read through it today. Doesn't look like it's going to be a game-changer, there's nothing in here that shakes things up like the Helldrake, Wave Serpent, or even Riptide did, but it definitely breathes a lot of new life into a dex that was getting kind of stale.
Chapter Tactics are mostly solid, and look like they'll make for a variety of different viable Builds. Ultramarines, Imperial Fists, White Scars, and Salamanders all look good to me.
Grav, the new hotness, seems like it'll mostly just show up on Centurions. Being Relentless, they can ignore the suckitude of Salvo on already short-ranged Weapons. They're really expensive tho, on the order of a Land Raider for 3 with Grav. On the other hand, that is 15 shots at 24", re-rolling to Wound. That's enough to pretty reliably drop a Riptide or WraithKnight in one round of fire. For everyone else, well, 18" Salvo is really kind of lame
Tigurius is beyond awesome. Basically what Ahriman and Eldrad should have been. Re-rolls on Reserves, Psychic Power Tests, and when choosing Powers, access to all five basic Disciplines, one of the good Warlord Traits, and all at quite a reasonable price.
Vanguard Vets are no longer quirky one trick ponies, but are now cheap enough that they can pretty much be what regular Assault Squads should be if you can restrain your spending on Power Weapons and stuff.
The AA Tanks are decent and cheap. No Interceptor, but they can fire at full effect on the Turn they move on from Reserves, so keeping them there and hoping they roll on after the Flyers is possibly a thing.
Legion of the Damned got cheaper and better. I'm really going to have trouble resisting the urge to take a Relentless, Ignores Cover Plasma Cannon.
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Post by dangerrod on Sept 9, 2013 2:57:22 GMT -5
I think we'll be seeing a lot of new White Scars armies popping up all over the place!
The Devastator Centurions will pack a punch here in the local meta......soo much Tau and Eldar!
Overall though, I would have to agree, it seems a very tame book compared to the recent 6th Ed releases.
Maybe the supplements will liven it up.....maybe
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Post by WestRider on Sept 9, 2013 11:18:28 GMT -5
I think it holds up just fine on its own. It just doesn't force everyone else to massively change to adapt to it. Which is honestly a good thing. Having the Meta shift that hard four times in a year already was kind of ridiculous.
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Post by cheminhaler on Sept 9, 2013 14:23:47 GMT -5
Do you not think Iron Hands are pretty solid with a bonus to Blessings of the Omnissiah for techpriests/ masters of the forge, It wil Not Die on characters/ vehicles and FNP on the entire detachment?
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Post by WestRider on Sept 9, 2013 14:55:56 GMT -5
6+ FNP is a nice little trick, but not all that great. IWND just encourages your Opponent to make sure they finish off Vehicles and Characters in one Turn, which is usually not a problem in Games bigger than 1K or so. The boost to Blessings of the Omnissiah is then just one more thing that incentivises killing Vehicles completely, and then focusing on Infantry if you don't have enough guns left to reliably drop another Tank.
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Post by yvain on Sept 9, 2013 15:24:31 GMT -5
Those devastator centurions with grav cannons are really powerful. They pretty much destroy what ever they shoot at a turn. I wish they were T6 or with an invul save, but with that firepower they would probably be OP.
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Post by WestRider on Sept 9, 2013 16:47:54 GMT -5
Yeah, I went up against a Squad of them yesterday, and I have to say that they're riding the edge of "broken at any cost". As they are, tho, they do have a couple of weaknesses, and those combine with the hefty price tag to keep them in the range of "strong, but beatable".
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Post by yvain on Sept 9, 2013 20:42:37 GMT -5
Its must be the habit of being a guard player, but I don't like spending some many points on a unit can be insta-killed. However, I guess it is the firepower your are paying for. I feel like the lascannons and heavy bolters are a waste. Not enough shots with the lascannons and not powerfull enough for the bolters. The grav cannons give you both strengths and the reroll with the amp makes them useful verse anything save Orks.
How hard were they to take down? Do you think you would use them yourself?
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Post by Ponen19 on Sept 9, 2013 22:24:04 GMT -5
The Centurions with Grav-cannons are a little much, but they are relatively killable, quite killable if you have enough lascannons/autocannons/high str weapons. What I found to be pretty cool is a squad of Raven Guard Vanguard Vets with all grav-pistols and melta bombs. Incredibly expensive yes, but they can reliably kill anything short of a horde. It comes out to around 370 points, but if that kills two riptides that might be worth it.
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Post by WestRider on Sept 10, 2013 1:35:20 GMT -5
I didn't actually kill them in that Game. They were in a Bolstered Ruin with the Stealth in Ruins Warlord Trait, so they had 2+ Cover as well. I was planning to push through in Assault, but then Abaddon got Terrified, broke from Combat, and got run down, while my other main Assault Unit (and much of the rest of my Army) decided to fail something in the vicinity of 2/3 of their 3+ Saves and die to a shockingly pitiful amount of Bolter Fire If they're in the open, or at least in only moderate cover, a fairly reasonable amount of AP2 firepower will do it. Or Charge them. They've only got 24" Range with Grav, so they have to get close, and they're Slow & Purposeful, so they can't fire Overwatch. They've only got 1 Attack each (2 for the Sarge), and no Power Weapons or anything, so they're probably the easiest Unit in the Game to Tarpit, relative to their Points Cost and Shooting output. Even one Power Axe/Fist with a few ablative dudes will grind them down eventually. Having looked at some other reactions, and seeing a couple of things I missed, I retract my claim in the OP, and now think that Bikes are actually going to be the platform of choice for Grav. They have the same 30" overall threat radius, they're awesome with the White Scars Chapter Tactics (and even more so with Khan), and they've got TL Bolters that are good against basically anything that Grav isn't. They can also become Troops with a Biker Captain (including Khan) or Chapter Master.
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Post by yvain on Sept 10, 2013 6:47:34 GMT -5
Yea I don't understand why bikes are so cheap in comparison to assault squads when they are probably better. As a wanna-be RG player this makes me butthurt.
Khan is even more ridiculous, he gives a ton of buffs and he is the same price as a Captain with powersword on a bike. Meanwhile he has Furious Charge, extra hammer of wrath, and making half your army Raven Guard light. .
Then there is Shrike. He is like 60 points more than Khan and buffs one squad. And it is a buff that may not even help them much. Assault Marines can never be troops either. I don't understand the logic behind it.
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Post by yvain on Sept 10, 2013 8:13:13 GMT -5
Question for Grav Weapons: Just checking my logic.
It says if you score a wound on a vehicle it gets glanced and immobilized. If you score a second it gets the same result. According to the rules, a second immobilized result equals another hull point. By that logic, grav cannons with their reroll are good against heavy armor as well.
Another rule quetions:
If I attach a Raven Guard Captain or Librarian who as Scout due to chapter tactics to unit of Raven Guard Centurions do the Centurions get Scout as well?
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Post by WestRider on Sept 10, 2013 12:42:14 GMT -5
1) That's correct. The second Immobilized Result would instead remove an additional Hull Point, so two Grav results will Immobilize it and strip a total of three Hull Points.
2) The Scout Rule does pass along, but because of the way the Chapter Tactics works, they aren't allowed to use it. It's a bit of a roundabout logic chain, but it was clearly written specifically to stop ICs from passing those Rules along to otherwise non-covered Units.
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Post by yvain on Sept 10, 2013 13:55:09 GMT -5
For the scout thing, what restriction are you looking at? The only restriction I am reading is the one that states you can't move tactics from chapter to chapter.
My logic basis is that the big rule book scout rule states that only one model needs the rule for it to apply. So while they have no benefit from chapter tactics, they use have benefit from the Scout rule on the character.
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Post by WestRider on Sept 10, 2013 16:18:57 GMT -5
For the scout thing, what restriction are you looking at? The only restriction I am reading is the one that states you can't move tactics from chapter to chapter. The one in the Raven Guard section, the last sentence of Strike from the Shadows, where it says "Note that units that include models with the Bulky or Very Bulky special rules do not benefit from either rule." So it's allowed to pass along, by the main Rulebook, but Strike from the Shadows explicitly prohibits them from actually using it.
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Post by yvain on Sept 10, 2013 16:52:35 GMT -5
When I read that, it is still ambiguous to me. It says they don't get either rule from their having chapter tactics. IC is still granted the special rule to himself which is all that is necessary to utilize Scout or stealth.
Judging by the other rules you are probably right. I am trying to find something that sets RG apart, but I keep coming up short.
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Post by WestRider on Sept 10, 2013 16:55:33 GMT -5
No, that's the thing. If it said that they didn't get the rule, what you're suggesting would still work, because the IC would get it, and could transfer it. It says that they can't benefit from the rule, even if they do have it. This is exactly why it was worded like that.
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Post by dangerrod on Sept 10, 2013 22:43:17 GMT -5
Coming back on topic, the new rules for Legion of the Dammed look pretty good
Having a healthy points drop and giving ALL their weapons Ignores Cover is pretty cool
Along with Slow and Purposeful and being able to re-roll deep strike scatter will be very handy at taking out Eldar tanks and bikes/jetbikes
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Post by WestRider on Sept 11, 2013 12:31:13 GMT -5
Yeah, my Opponent had a Squad of them, too. It was a sub-optimal situation for them, but they still cleared out my backfield pretty handily. I'm thinking either load up with Melta and go Tank Hunting, or Plasma to clear out Heavy Infantry. I also just noticed that Vulkan's ability to Twin-Link Meltas works on all Models in his Detachment, not just those with Chapter Tactics. So it works on LotD Meltas, too
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Post by yvain on Sept 12, 2013 6:53:28 GMT -5
So for some reason the Scout Sgt can't take a sniper rifle now. Even better they cost a single point so you will always end up with a point remaining to get to 5 or 0. God that is annoying.
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Post by RedCuffs on Sept 12, 2013 9:06:52 GMT -5
The main reason I have had little interest in starting a SM collection is that I think the models look rubbish. Figures in power armour? Rubbish. SM Vehicles? Rubbish. Even the new flyers. Expensive Rubbish. Covering everything with banners, rags and chapter bling? Rubbish. Except for the scouts. They’re cool. And the Land Speeders. They’re really cool. Always have been. So imagine the combination of glee, deep joy and general excitement when I discovered that (now that Scouts can take a Land Speeder Storm as a dedicated transport) I can now build an averagely competitive list comprising of just those two things Except for the HQ. meh … And that’s my only disappointment about the new Codex. I was hoping for a HQ choice that is equipped as a scout. I’ve asked for a bit of list building advice on this thread commissar.proboards.com/thread/17753/help-required-scouts-skimmers-list from players who have more SM game, models and fluff knowledge than me.
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Post by WestRider on Sept 12, 2013 21:52:14 GMT -5
So for some reason the Scout Sgt can't take a sniper rifle now. Even better they cost a single point so you will always end up with a point remaining to get to 5 or 0. God that is annoying. How do you figure? The Sniper Rifles are an "Any Model" option in my copy. Sergeant's a Model. It's only the Heavy Bolter or Missile Launcher that's restricted to a "Scout", which seems entirely reasonable.
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Post by cheminhaler on Sept 13, 2013 16:21:31 GMT -5
6+ FNP is a nice little trick, but not all that great. IWND just encourages your Opponent to make sure they finish off Vehicles and Characters in one Turn, which is usually not a problem in Games bigger than 1K or so. The boost to Blessings of the Omnissiah is then just one more thing that incentivises killing Vehicles completely, and then focusing on Infantry if you don't have enough guns left to reliably drop another Tank. But do you think it's a nice enough bonus to do a vehicle heavy/ rhino rush list? Plus even the anti air rhino will get IWND too
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Post by optimat on Sept 13, 2013 16:55:34 GMT -5
I started my iron hands army (own chapter counts as) because they suit my thoughts/style best. I and trying to get around west riders point about my predator being focused on early doors in two ways: drop pod tactical squad at the start of the game, and a thunder fire cannon for artillery instead of something like a dreadnought. I'm hoping this will mean my MoF and chapter tactics rules will keep the artillery well protected while the troops choices do the mopping up.
Then again, plans never really go to plan so you've got to have a little hope that if you throw enough threats at the enemy their own game plan is ruined too. Haha.
I only have a little experience so maybe someone could share how they, being more competitively minded than myself, would capitalise using an iron hands list?
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Post by WestRider on Sept 13, 2013 18:04:02 GMT -5
6+ FNP is a nice little trick, but not all that great. IWND just encourages your Opponent to make sure they finish off Vehicles and Characters in one Turn, which is usually not a problem in Games bigger than 1K or so. The boost to Blessings of the Omnissiah is then just one more thing that incentivises killing Vehicles completely, and then focusing on Infantry if you don't have enough guns left to reliably drop another Tank. But do you think it's a nice enough bonus to do a vehicle heavy/ rhino rush list? Plus even the anti air rhino will get IWND too I don't think it'll come up 90% of the time against good Opponents. Like I said before, what it's going to encourage your Opponent to do is finish off Vehicles whenever possible, so you don't get a chance to roll for IWND at all, because everything is either at full HP or completely destroyed. The main place I can see it coming into play is Master of the Forge Lists spamming IronClads. You can get enough to overwhelm people's supply of Melta, and they're tough enough that they're hard to Glance down, but not so tough that people just won't bother. They can also hide in Assaults to a certain extent later on. That's about the only IH list I can see regularly ending Turns with Vehicles missing Hull Points but still standing.
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