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Post by respirator on Nov 24, 2013 18:35:12 GMT -5
10man Vet Squad with Meltas x2 a Heavy Flamer and Demo Charge/Melta bombs.
They can hit tanks/TeQ with the Meltas, TeQ with the Demo Charge and Mop up ap4 with the Heavy Flamer. Planned to be dropped off behind enemy lines in a Vendetta. It seems they can engage, harass and destroy many different targets, as befits their commando style deployment.
They are 40% more expensive than Vets with meltas x3 though.. Is it worth the Upgrade?
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Post by yvain on Nov 25, 2013 11:46:42 GMT -5
First off, the heavy flamer is a bad choice. It is way too expensive for what it does. 2 regular flamers is 10 points cheaper and doubles the wound pool on MEQs and really only lacks killing power on the +4 armor save level. There are not a lot of +4 units in the game most are +5 and under or 3+ and over.
To expand further, you are underestimating the power of the lasgun. Someone on this site proved with math that lasguns are almost always more effective than special weapons when fighting infantry because you are forcing them to roll tons of saves. Basically, if you trim the fat and can afford another INF squad you should do it. Special weapons are there when you need to accomplish a specific mission. Melta ensure vehicle and single character death, plasma ensure +2 death, and flamers have inherent advantages that make the 5 points worth it. That is why those 3 weapons are frequently suggested to be taken.
The problem with mixing weapons is one of efficiency. Unlike marines there is a good chance your guys are going to die. Unless they are built like power blobs or can hide in deep cover, pretty much anything will take them out. So you basically want to max weapons in one unit to ensure you will accomplish its single objective and then take multiple to ensure that someone does the job. You will likely get only a few turns out of them before they eat it or are rendered ineffective so you want to make the most of those points.
To look at it another way, the weapon profiles of the flamer and melta are similar, but still different. Every time you take out a tank your 20 point HF is wasted. Everytime you shoot at +4 or +5 you meltas are mostly wasted. They will still kill +4, but really the 12 lasgun shots are doing the job just as well and saving you 30 points.
The demo charges with 3 meltas is a good choice because the profiles match. You will always shoot the same targets with meltas as you would with bombs and demo charges. Does this logic make sense.
Is your build horrible? No Could it be effective? Yes It is the best you use of your points? Probably not
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Post by treadiculous on Nov 26, 2013 7:59:13 GMT -5
While I agree with yvain on many of his points, I feel that they are serving a general rule for army building.
What respirator is describing is a small unit with a specific role:
It will be dropped off in enemy territory or near an objective in no mans land and is expected to cause maximum damage.
For this role having a squad which can deliver a lot of hurt to hordes and to elites is a good way to cover most situations,
I would think something more like this would be a better option though:
3 flamers + democharge + poweraxe (possibly melta bombs too)
the reasons are:
the flamers cause 3 wounds (as yvain said) and this is better than 1 wound. the democharge will destroy tanks and elite infantry alike so throw this on your arrival to make sure it gets used the poweraxe allows you to attack rear armour of any tanks that aren't totaled by the democharge, and where meltabombs help - though melta bombs often kill your squad when the tank goes boom
best to deepstrike so that you can shoot at a tank and happen to flame / demo charge a load of infantry in the way too
this way you threaten the 3 different unit types - hordes, elite infantry and tanks.
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Post by yvain on Nov 27, 2013 17:41:52 GMT -5
I like that build. You get melta bombs with demolitions so you really don't need the power axe. Maybe shotguns instead of lasguns?
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Post by respirator on Nov 29, 2013 17:03:31 GMT -5
Ahh got it! Flamers x3 and Demo Charges/Melta bombs comes out much cheeper too which I like.
You could team them up with a Melta x3 squad too for added capabilities to handle vehicles. Best to keep them cheep at 100 points or fork out 30 points for a doctrine?
If you guys have a spare moment do you fancy going to the beginners board and advising me on how best to get my old models on the table? Basically I'm trying to work out what special weapons to buy in order to take a veterans list that will work with my other models.
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Post by respirator on Nov 30, 2013 13:19:25 GMT -5
Quick thought. flamers x2 and a demo charge in a special weapons squad is quite the discount.. considering flamers waste the Vets BS4
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Post by treadiculous on Nov 30, 2013 17:42:52 GMT -5
for a suicide squad aye
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Post by emptyhat on Dec 1, 2013 1:20:32 GMT -5
Including flamers would also be good if the squad is likely to be charged. If you think it will be used as a denial unit or to claim an objective you might be able to put them in a situation where it will be hard to shoot them out of position, obviously they are still guard but they can benefit from going to ground.
Just something to keep in mind if their normal mission isn't a viable option or you need to hold some ground more than you need to deal damage.
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Post by respirator on Dec 1, 2013 6:53:21 GMT -5
can you 'stand and shoot/overwarch with a demo charge?
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Post by emptyhat on Dec 1, 2013 11:30:08 GMT -5
It is a template so you can't. Flamers have special permission to overwatch but rather than using their template you get D3 wounds per flamer. (You are probably aware of that but since I'm saying demo-charges can't because they are templates I thought I'd mention it.)
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Post by WestRider on Dec 1, 2013 11:52:59 GMT -5
Demo Charges are Blasts, not Templates. "Template" only refers to weapons that use the teardrop shaped marker, not the round Blast Markers, and this is one of the big reasons that distinction is important. All Templates can fire Overwatch via the Wall of Death special Rule, while Blasts cannot fire Overwatch at all.
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Post by emptyhat on Dec 1, 2013 19:11:13 GMT -5
Fair enough. I always forget that because I've heard people say "blast templates" so many times.
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Post by WestRider on Dec 1, 2013 21:59:10 GMT -5
No worries. It's one of the most common errors I see in 40K discussions, and an entirely understandable one, especially for people who played in 4th or before, or who learned from people who played those editions. In some previous editions, the terms were different, and "blast template" was commonly used, with "flamer" being the Type for what are now called Template Weapons. GW actually screw it up themselves sometimes. I wish they could have come up with some more distinctive terminology, or at least been consistent with it over the last two editions since they standardized it, because it leads to a lot of misunderstandings, people thinking that Blasts ignore Cover, or get to re-roll failed Wounds when Twin-Linked, which are specifically rules for Templates.
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Post by Adam Selene on Dec 25, 2013 9:02:40 GMT -5
Meltas, Demo Charge, Heavy Flamer, Vendetta. While your throwing thrones around why not give them carapace armour?
Personally I would go with two flamers, a melta and a power axe. And a Vendetta if you must.
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Post by comradecommissar on Aug 25, 2015 21:55:40 GMT -5
First off, the heavy flamer is a bad choice. It is way too expensive for what it does. 2 regular flamers is 10 points cheaper and doubles the wound pool on MEQs and really only lacks killing power on the +4 armor save level. There are not a lot of +4 units in the game most are +5 and under or 3+ and over. To expand further, you are underestimating the power of the lasgun. Someone on this site proved with math that lasguns are almost always more effective than special weapons when fighting infantry because you are forcing them to roll tons of saves. Basically, if you trim the fat and can afford another INF squad you should do it. Special weapons are there when you need to accomplish a specific mission. Melta ensure vehicle and single character death, plasma ensure +2 death, and flamers have inherent advantages that make the 5 points worth it. That is why those 3 weapons are frequently suggested to be taken. The problem with mixing weapons is one of efficiency. Unlike marines there is a good chance your guys are going to die. Unless they are built like power blobs or can hide in deep cover, pretty much anything will take them out. So you basically want to max weapons in one unit to ensure you will accomplish its single objective and then take multiple to ensure that someone does the job. You will likely get only a few turns out of them before they eat it or are rendered ineffective so you want to make the most of those points. To look at it another way, the weapon profiles of the flamer and melta are similar, but still different. Every time you take out a tank your 20 point HF is wasted. Everytime you shoot at +4 or +5 you meltas are mostly wasted. They will still kill +4, but really the 12 lasgun shots are doing the job just as well and saving you 30 points. The demo charges with 3 meltas is a good choice because the profiles match. You will always shoot the same targets with meltas as you would with bombs and demo charges. Does this logic make sense. Is your build horrible? No Could it be effective? Yes It is the best you use of your points? Probably not Do you have the link to that lasgunners math? I would love to see that!
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Post by Captain Zapp Brannigan on Aug 28, 2015 7:53:56 GMT -5
Heavy flamer worth two flamers not four?
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Post by gamma016 on Aug 28, 2015 19:52:07 GMT -5
This is a very old thread from an old codex, it's not really relevant.
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Post by emptyhat on Aug 28, 2015 20:33:59 GMT -5
Well, relevant or not, I'll let you draw your own conclusions. (I wasn't too keen on the logic because it only works in a tactical vacuum) link
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Post by Captain Zapp Brannigan on Aug 28, 2015 23:09:17 GMT -5
Well, relevant or not, I'll let you draw your own conclusions. (I wasn't too keen on the logic because it only works in a tactical vacuum) linkHaha props to emptyhat brining up that thread again-wasn't that fun to watch unravel?
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Post by emptyhat on Aug 29, 2015 2:28:56 GMT -5
It was something. Re-reading it I notice that they're talking about the thread with the lasgun mathamancy in it being a recent thread, but eh, close enough.
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Post by fullmetaljacket on Dec 31, 2015 20:25:37 GMT -5
i tend to keep vet squads or any unit for that matter , geared for one job... like a monster killer , a horde killer , a tanks killer... especially with guard because focus firing and destroying the biggest threats is important. you can have part of a squad trying to kill the inbound crusader and the flamer guy and the grenade launcher guy just chillin... you want to have one unit of vets drive up dismount and have 3 melta guns blow it hell and have another squad of 3 plasma guns waiting `to kill whatever is inside it also helps with orders and maximizing each orders effect on a unit ... fmj
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Post by Ghost42 on Nov 24, 2016 6:05:32 GMT -5
10man Vet Squad with Meltas x2 a Heavy Flamer and Demo Charge/Melta bombs. They can hit tanks/TeQ with the Meltas, TeQ with the Demo Charge and Mop up ap4 with the Heavy Flamer. Planned to be dropped off behind enemy lines in a Vendetta. It seems they can engage, harass and destroy many different targets, as befits their commando style deployment. They are 40% more expensive than Vets with meltas x3 though.. Is it worth the Upgrade? I just want to remind everyone that the transport capacity of a Vendetta is only 6 models You probably meant Valkyrie, but I'm just watchin your 6 The Emperor Protects.
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Post by RedsandRoyals on Nov 24, 2016 10:09:03 GMT -5
10man Vet Squad with Meltas x2 a Heavy Flamer and Demo Charge/Melta bombs. They can hit tanks/TeQ with the Meltas, TeQ with the Demo Charge and Mop up ap4 with the Heavy Flamer. Planned to be dropped off behind enemy lines in a Vendetta. It seems they can engage, harass and destroy many different targets, as befits their commando style deployment. They are 40% more expensive than Vets with meltas x3 though.. Is it worth the Upgrade? I just want to remind everyone that the transport capacity of a Vendetta is only 6 models You probably meant Valkyrie, but I'm just watchin your 6 The Emperor Protects. That post was made exactly three years ago to the day, so it was back with the old codex when Vens still had a full transport capacity. Timestamps for posts are important, people!
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Post by Ghost42 on Nov 24, 2016 17:02:59 GMT -5
Lmao, didn't notice the date on it...oops
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Post by RedsandRoyals on Nov 24, 2016 17:49:42 GMT -5
No worries mate.
Always nice to remember the good old days, when Vens could carry a full squad and nobody else had planes.
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