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Post by Deleted on Mar 1, 2008 14:29:02 GMT -5
Hi, I'm looking to start a guard based army over the next coming months. I plan on going for massed infantry (using hvy weapons teams rather than tanks). I have a quirk about not fielding a model unless its painted....so with this army I am looking at a long, long road ahead of me before I get to 2000pts.
Therefore I am going to start out with just a 500 point basic HQ & 2 troops. No doctrines yet, I want to run with the army for a bit and get a feel for the guardsmen first.
I have the codex...but that is it so far.
The advise I am looking on is what to buy...I am thinking 3 plattoons and a Hvy squad (can I milk more than 3 teams from this box if I have spare bases and use left over guardsman ?)
Additionally, I could use some tips on heavy weapons. Are they best used in the infantry squads or in command squads? Are the special weapons a waste of points that are better spent on more hvys since I won't have transports? Wargear advice for officers and command is welcome too. Thinking I want to take a Master Vox and Hon Imp on the leader but that is as far as I've gotten.
Saddly it looks like I will have about 140 to work with for weapons and gear so I will need to choose my equipment carefully.
Thanks in advance for any assistance.
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Post by kyron on Mar 1, 2008 14:40:02 GMT -5
I don't use unpainted models either. So I can understand that it feels like it's going to take a very long time. But it doesn't need to. I started with planning a 400pts army for "40k-in-40-minutes". And added 600 pts to that when I was done. Then I built another 500pts every time I was about to expand. That way it didn't feel like it took so long time. Yes, you can "milk" more than 3 teams from one box. I think heavy weapons a best used in both normal squads and heavy weapon squad. And special weapons is a must if you ask me. They give your squad alittle more "punch" that they surly need. I don't use the vox system. But most people do. Instead I have a heroic senior officer and a lieutenant with the Honorifica Imperialis. That way I have two Ld 9 officers on the field that support my army and I can use the points for the vox system on other things.
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Post by The Refined Gentleman (M.I.A) on Mar 1, 2008 14:51:54 GMT -5
you don't need spare hvy weapon bases, just have normal guardsmen on normal bases carrying the weapons and ammo, very cost effective.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 1, 2008 18:13:54 GMT -5
you don't need spare hvy weapon bases, just have normal guardsmen on normal bases carrying the weapons and ammo, very cost effective. That works well for missile launchers and mortars but not much else.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 2, 2008 17:02:54 GMT -5
Thanks for the suggestions.
I have decided to theme my guard regiment as the opponent of my other army, Necrons. The uniforms will be in greyscale in order to blend in with the surroundings of a barren ash covered Tomb World.
I am going to stay clear of tanks and armor since Gauss can eat through it like it was butter (fluffwise). I think I will actually utilize doctrines afterall in order to gain extra veterans and iron discipline (which seems extremely useful with as many casualties I will be taking).
1. Veterans 2. Iron Discipline 3. Heavy Weapons 4. Conscripts 5. Special Weapons
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Post by Woz on Mar 2, 2008 19:01:22 GMT -5
You can have up to 5 HW squads as part of a HQ platoon but they act independently to your command squad. So there's no need to use the HW doc. (Also you don't need to have this doc to have HW's in your infantry squads) The HW doc only applies if you want to take a HW Platoon (pg48 ).
The SW doc only applies if you want to take Special Weapons Support Squads (pg 39). you can still take SW's in your infantry squads etc without taking this doc.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 2, 2008 20:34:45 GMT -5
Yeah, I know. I actually plan on using both spec squads and at least 1 heavy weapons plattoon (as the list grows).
Basic draft of what I'm thinking taking for units weapon setups in the 2k range is - Command Squads- Plasmas /w medics HQ Support -2 Spec Squads- Sniper rifles -2 Lascannon Squads -1 Autocannon Squad Vets- Meltas & Auto Inf squads- Nade Launchers & HB/Missles Conscripts- Flamers Hvy Squads- Whatever I still need more of
Seem decent?
*Edit* ok...that list came out to like 3000 points, maybe I got a bit weapon happy.
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Post by Woz on Mar 3, 2008 14:44:21 GMT -5
This'll be a good defensive force but you could do with some units that can grab objectives. A couple of Armoured fist squads or deep striking Stormtroopers would do the trick.
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Post by Mabus on Mar 3, 2008 15:14:22 GMT -5
I agree with Woz, you need some fast units, rough riders are good choice if you want to avoid using tanks.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 4, 2008 12:21:34 GMT -5
I'm definitely not feeling the tanks, AF, sents or rough riders. However...I wouldnt mind dropping conscripts for Drop troops? Do vets and spec squads count as guard infantry? If so at least one of the spec squads will need a demo charge
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Post by lordcastellenjon on Mar 4, 2008 18:50:40 GMT -5
hmm I think you should bolt your force to the ground figure out how to make a nice tight defence line that would force the enemy to come to you and buff up you HQ squads with CQ weapons and the like
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Post by Deleted on Mar 4, 2008 23:41:24 GMT -5
Yikes...this list has the ability to field like 50 heavy weapons (space wise...not necessarily the available points). Something about that is just kind of frightening. Also goes well with the bolt down defensive line idea.
Upon further thought, I decided I want the conscripts still...cheap meatshields will be extremely useful.
I was also considering adding sharpshooter doctrine...but I think the points per squad it costs is better spent on adding a heavy bolter to squads instead!
Giant machine gun > reroll!
This army can now be purchased in one expensive step if I can find one of those Inf Company deals that came out with apocalypse.
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Post by sammy1979 on Mar 5, 2008 5:28:14 GMT -5
remember conscript need commisars or you'll just have 50 men legging it as soon as it gets tough,
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Post by Deleted on Mar 5, 2008 7:39:09 GMT -5
Hmmm...that may be a problem because I will likely have 4-5 command squads.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 5, 2008 7:46:35 GMT -5
I think drop troops is the way to go then instead of the conscripts, as it won't cost me anything but it will give me a bit more flexibility during deployment.
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Post by Turtleboy(AWOL) on Mar 15, 2008 9:32:37 GMT -5
I think heavy weapons a best used in both normal squads and heavy weapon squad. this will make your army 100% static by nature, however, and if you're faced with a mission that makes you move you will be less prepared to capture objectives. large bases also take up lots of space, and the amount of room you have in available cover is really important as a guard player. if your guys don't get a cover save, they typically don't get a save at all. I don't use the vox system. But most people do. Instead I have a heroic senior officer and a lieutenant with the Honorifica Imperialis. That way I have two Ld 9 officers on the field that support my army and I can use the points for the vox system on other things. this is a great thing if you've got heavy weapon squads. since they don't have the vox option, and they don't get a veteran sergeant option, they literally MUST be babysat by an officer as they're almost always the first thing your opponent will target (especially in an infantry only army). 2 sources of Ld9 is a really nice thing - it allows you to have an extra babysitter which frees your command hq up to do other things (or you can babysit heavy weapons in split firebases which is a really nice battlefield tactic too). since you or someone else reading this might want to know what the split firebase tactic is, here goes: deploy far left and far right. the enemy must choose to go after one firebase, then, after marching across the board to get to that firebase, must march across your deployment edge (an even longer walk with likely less transports for the enemy army by this time) as you chew them up again. The SW doc only applies if you want to take Special Weapons Support Squads (pg 39). you can still take SW's in your infantry squads etc without taking this doc. who doesn't like demo charges...I mean...c'mon! I'm definitely not feeling the tanks, AF, sents or rough riders. ...I wouldnt mind dropping conscripts for Drop troops? you need a counter-assault unit. guard is the shooty army that sucks at shooting AND has crappy guns. add that all up and you'll learn to expect the enemy to make it to your lines every single time you take the field. plan accordingly. drop troops is a bag of chips I'm unfamiliar with the flavor of, but I know that conscripts are great for counter-assault. it seems like the only other option yet to be presented is ogryn. one or the other, but you'll need something that can fight in an assault if you go with a conventional (non drop-troop) army. I think drop troops is the way to go then instead of the conscripts, as it won't cost me anything but it will give me a bit more flexibility during deployment. beware of your army coming down piece-meil. you lack guns at the outset and with a scattered drop you can be cleaned out every round until there's nothing left dropping. on the flip side of the equation, if all your boys come in at the same time for the most part, then you have something to work with you're still gonna get run over in melee without counterassault units though - drop troops just seems like making your opponent snack on your doods - a little here, a little there vs. making him try and eat your whole army in one go. I'd rather have all my guys gathered up for the big fight because in my experience, it literally takes like 4 extra squads of guys to throw into a fight to actually win it. I imagine you could do this with drop troops, just dropping all your guys clustered up and reinforcing whichever one gets sacked.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 20, 2008 18:28:32 GMT -5
would you rate a just infantry army to a infantry and tank army.
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Post by Turtleboy(AWOL) on Mar 20, 2008 19:30:42 GMT -5
infantry army=painfully inferior to infantry & tank combined army=what it should be.
I played infantry only for a couple years, and you have to win every turn to win the game. lose a turn and you lose the game. it's like every move you make is do or die - so many critical moments it boggles the mind. unfortunately guard aren't reliable enough to pull thru. that's been my experience.
a few things I didn't try in an infantry only army were ogryn ratlings and roughriders. that could change things a bit but I have no experience with it.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 20, 2008 21:58:11 GMT -5
What were the biggest problems you ran into with your infantry list(s)? Also what kinds of lists were you running...stormie/grenadier, drop troops, light infantry, etc. Did you include armor fists and sentinels?
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Post by Turtleboy(AWOL) on Mar 21, 2008 5:26:37 GMT -5
I did massed infantry - 2x25 man platoons with a 20 man conscript platoon to back it up. special weapon squads, lots of heavy weapon squads (which I found were a highlight of the list, but restrictive on available space to put my guardsmen where I could get a cover save). let me see if I can find an old list in the armylists section. here's a 500pt list. it initially started in the thread as a 400pt list but I expanded it to a 500pt list based on battlefield experience - pics incl. ^_^ I think this is the best list to take a look at, even if it's small, cuz it's something that met with >some< success. guard infantry with heavy weapon team backup is a lot better than guard infantry alone. that was the big learning here. commissar.proboards22.com/index.cgi?board=armylist&action=display&thread=1160081892] here's a 1750pts list that failed due too overly expensive troops: commissar.proboards22.com/index.cgi?board=armylist&action=display&thread=1158450734
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Post by Deleted on Mar 24, 2008 2:35:18 GMT -5
I play mostly infantry and I'll say that 90% of your problem was lack of boots on the ground.
If you are going to go all infantry you are going to want as many guys as you can get. I tend to run 2 full 55 man platoon and then fill in what i'm lacking. No matter what you tool up your officers to do in cc 99% of the time they are going to lose. Just spend those points on getting more guns.
The best way to deal with C'tan in with a 10 man ratling sniper squad, most enemy HQs use a melta armed special weapon squad.
For docts, well I seeing as how I have an all metal Mordain army I use the Mordian docts. I win games by sheer volume of fire. Though when a cc army hits my lines my guys die fast and in droves.
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Post by Turtleboy(AWOL) on Mar 24, 2008 5:13:58 GMT -5
yeah I had it out against a pure infantry orc army tonight. it was ugly. in 1500pts, he had 1 killa can. the rest was guardsman priced orcs. it was brutal, I took down a good chunk of his guys, but he murdered the hell outta me and still had like 75 orcs waiting to charge any survivors. it was pretty silly.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 24, 2008 22:54:55 GMT -5
Yah its pretty crazy. I've been looking at building a new guard force to deal with horde and big bug lists. Only problem is with official word that 5th ED is coming this summer and with the changes they are making with line of sight and only infantry being scoring I want to wait to see what the new guard codex looks like with the changes to 40k.
Not that I'm going to have to wait long the new guard codex is coming out this year.
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Post by Turtleboy(AWOL) on Mar 25, 2008 11:48:11 GMT -5
I'm not sure if I'm gonna be looking forward to the new guard codex or not
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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2008 19:35:15 GMT -5
I think I can live with it depending on what major changes they make. Seeing as how they seem to be going back to 2nd Ed style rules with the new codexs I'm going to assume that its going to be like that but with docterines.
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