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Post by RedsandRoyals on Apr 5, 2014 14:59:03 GMT -5
For a couple reasons, I've been digging up information on 40k weapon systems, and looking at them in comparison to modern military equipment. Now obviously, everything here should be taken with a sack of salt. 40k and it's equipment is all fictional, and there's no one, unifying author controlling the universe, so information can be all over the place. I've relied on IA books, along with the 40k RP sourcebooks, for most of this, since they tend to be the most internally consistent, and their authors follow 40k fluff fairly closely while still having half a brain in their head when it comes to military technology and tactics. There's also a lot of things we don't know about (like how ferrocrete compares to steel), so it's extremely hard to draw direct comparisons. I won't be saying, for example, "A Challenger 2 can defeat a Leman Russ". This thread is more about conjecture and educated guesses for anyone who's interested in reading them.
Aircraft
- The Thunderbolt has roughly the same speed performance as an F-16.
- Imperial aircraft have absurdly large operational ranges compared to modern fighters. Fluff wise, this could be due to advanced engine designs and Promethium being an extremely efficient fuel, but I suspect it's mainly due to GW having no idea what a reasonable range is for an aircraft.
- Maneuverability is tricky. Double Eagle depicts Thunderbolts as having vector thrust capability, so even with the aircraft's odd shape and relatively heavy armor, it can probably hold it's own against F-15s, and possibly F-16s.
- In terms of size, both the Lighting (at least the old one) and the Thunderbolt are smaller than the F-16 by ~1m, and ~0.5m, respectively.
- The armor on both aircraft are, very broadly speaking, similar to an A-10, although I don't know how they compare in terms of survivability (since armor is only part of that equation).
- Despite the relatively advanced performance of the Lighting and Thunderbolt, their armaments are crap. They rely on large numbers of short range weapons such as Autocannons (20mm-35mm in caliber) and lascannons, effectively turning them in to gunfighters. Rockets and missiles are available, but from what I understand, they are relatively rare, and are the equivalent of early Air to Air rockets, or Infra-red guided SRAAMs, like the Sidewinders.
- Imperial fighters lack on-board radar, as far as I can tell.
- The Marauder is sort of a quirky aircraft. It's design is effectively similar to WWII-era medium bombers, but it's closest "modern" equivilant would be an F-111A in terms of role. It's slower, smaller, and carries less in terms of payload (theoretically 6,000lbs less, but practical payload weights for the F-111 were less than the maximum).
- As far as I'm aware, there's no mention of the Imperium operating AWACS or SEAD. Aircraft that function as strategic bombers are mentioned in passing, but there's practically no details about them.
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Post by RedsandRoyals on Apr 5, 2014 15:34:59 GMT -5
Anti-Aircraft Systems
- The Hydra seems to be roughly equivalent with a Tunguska or Gepard, but without the additional IR AA missiles. From what I've read, it's capable of acquiring a target and automatically traversing the turret to follow it.
- Manticore AA missiles are similar to the U.S. I-Hawk or Russian BUKs, and function as long range radar guided anti aircraft missiles. They carry their search and acquisition radars on board with them, though.
- There's no short ranged IR AA systems as far as I can tell.
- Dedicated ManPADS don't exist, instead relying on a specific missile type that can be fired by a universal launcher. The ones the Imperial Guard uses are most likely similar to the Redeye.
- Air defense in general seems to be lacking horrendously in the Imperial Guard, as Manticores are rare, and there are never enough Hydras. This means AA duties are performed by Exterminators or Chimeras acting as a poor man's SPAAG.
Tanks
- The Leman Russ has 200mm of armor on it's hull at it's thickest point, while the base M1A2 has 600mm. As a result, the materials used to make the Russ's armor would need to be three times as effective at stopping penetration as the materials used in the M1A2 to make them equal.
- The caliber of a battle cannon, depending on who you ask, either 105mm, 120mm or 150mm, with the Demolisher cannon being either 150mm or 170mm.
- Russes rely on HE and AT rounds. The Vanquisher fires something roughly equivalent to a Sabot round. As far as I can tell, there's no such thing as HEAT or HESH rounds.
- Russes are very, very slow. Their top speed off road is less than 15mph.
- They also have an absurdly high profile. The Russ is 2m taller than a Challenger II.
- If you're looking for something to compare to the Russ in terms of performance, role, reliability, fire control, etc, a Centurion with armor made from more advanced materials would probably the best rough analog.
General Ground Stuff
- All Imperial vehicles are huge. The Chimera, for example, is larger than the M2 Bradley IFV, and taller by about 2ft. That said, nearly all Chimera variants have substantially thicker armor (at least on the front) compared to most modern IFVs and AFVs.
- They're all slow, too. I think the fastest is 30mph off road.
- Hunter Killer missiles are a bit confusing. Some are described as IR, some act more like a Javelin fired on a flat trajectory. As far as I know, though, they lack top attack capability, although there is a very, very rare Leman Russ round that has it.
- Infantry missile launchers are pretty interesting. The targeting system seems broadly similar to a Javelin, and can target vehicles or aircraft, and can fire AA, HE, and AT missiles. That said, it seems like the AT and HE missiles are either unguided, or posses an extremely crude guidance system, due to their apparent reliance on the firer's skill to hit the target. There do not appear to be any wire guided ATGMs, though.
- AT rockets, like an RPG or LAW, do exist, and seem to be used interchangeably with missile launchers for attacking ground targets. This is a little confusing, since missiles traditionally have longer range, but whatever.
Anyway, that's it. Just figured I'd share in case anyone was interested.
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Post by Trooper One-Nine-Seven-Four on Apr 5, 2014 15:45:42 GMT -5
- Imperial fighters lack on-board radar, as far as I can tell. I think they are equipped with some sort of limited tactical Auspex systems. At least I recall them being so in "Double Eagle" although overall guidance was still provided by controllers operating at the airfields who had access to much more powerful strategic Auspex and Modar systems.
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Post by RedsandRoyals on Apr 5, 2014 16:13:42 GMT -5
That's my impression as well. They have limited area awareness, and rely on a controller stationed behind the lines for direction and the like. If I had to guess, though, I'd say on board 40k auspex stuff are pretty inferior to the sensor suites on modern aircraft today. That makes sense, though since they're not shooting over the horizon, or using radar guided MRAAMs or LRAAMS.
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Post by Trooper One-Nine-Seven-Four on Apr 5, 2014 16:20:35 GMT -5
That's my impression as well. They have limited area awareness, and rely on a controller stationed behind the lines for direction and the like. If I had to guess, though, I'd say on board 40k auspex stuff are pretty inferior to the sensor suites on modern aircraft today. That makes sense, though since they're not shooting over the horizon, or using radar guided MRAAMs or LRAAMS. My thoughts exactly. It gives them enough awareness if they suddenly blunder into something to know where to point the guns in the general direction of the bad guys, or helps them resolve things as they are directed by the controllers into a combat situation. I would definitely like to see more books about air combat in 40K... I thought Abnett was going to be doing a follow-up to "Double Eagle" at some point? Part of me is wondering how much of the shortage of air-to-air missiles is just a plot device to allow for playing up the whole "Knights of the Sky" trope and keeping air combat in a "more personal" guns versus guns "SEE YOUR ENEMY DIE AS YOUR CANNON ROUNDS OBLITERATE THEIR COCKPIT" theme in an attempt to capture the feeling of WW II air combat?
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Post by Gunny O'Grady on Apr 5, 2014 18:36:25 GMT -5
This is great! Thank you for taking the time to do this! As an avid fluff-writer and fluff-army-builder, this is super useful information.
-Gunny
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Post by RedsandRoyals on Apr 5, 2014 18:44:36 GMT -5
No worries. I figured someone out there might be able to make use of this info. Incidentally, if anyone wants me to look into any particular topic, just ask.
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Post by Trickstick on Apr 5, 2014 22:55:56 GMT -5
- As far as I'm aware, there's no mention of the Imperium operating AWACS or SEAD. Aircraft that function as strategic bombers are mentioned in passing, but there's practically no details about them. Could the Marauder Vigilant (from Aeronatica Imperialis) count as AWACS? It had most of its weapons and payload removed and replaced with a surveillance suite.
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Post by RedsandRoyals on Apr 6, 2014 0:39:02 GMT -5
Not sure. Reading that description, it seems to have a split personality between recon and AWACS, which doesn't make sense unless by "recon" they actually mean serving as a flying radar. If that's the case, yeah, it's certainly an AWACS.
Reds
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Post by Julian Sharps on Apr 6, 2014 13:32:22 GMT -5
In Necromunda and elsewhere, a heavy stubber has been clearly identified as a .50 caliber machine gun.
Also, Imperial Guardsmen have body armor that is far superior to even the most advanced infantry armor we have today, as it's capable of stopping the aforementioned heavy stubber completely without mission killing the wearer.
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Post by Trooper One-Nine-Seven-Four on Apr 6, 2014 14:28:40 GMT -5
I think I've also seen heavy stubbers referenced as being .30 caliber in addition to .50. But yeah, as much as we like to make fun of it, our cardboard "flak armor" is definitely far more advanced than body armor of today...
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Post by Gunny O'Grady on Apr 6, 2014 22:36:03 GMT -5
I've been wondering about the comparative strength, range, and accuracy of 40k small arms -- how does an autogun, bolter, even a lasgun compare to the AR15, Ak47, or larger rifles like the 50 cal?
-Gunny
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Post by RedsandRoyals on Apr 6, 2014 23:54:02 GMT -5
That's a little tricky to answer. I can tell you that everything from .22 to .45 or even .50cal is used for firearms. Keep in mind, though, most Imperial small arms are designed to shoot people, or hunt animals, not down Orks or Space Marines, so having 5.56mm rounds (which would be of dubious usefulness against the sort of thing you'd see on a 40k tabletop) would still be fairly common on hive worlds and the like. As Trooper and Sharps said, the Heavy Stubber is either a .30 or .50. and if I recall, Bolters use a .75 round, but I don't know if Space Marines use a larger round, since they use bigger bolters.
Stopping power is sort of difficult to pin down, as there's never a direct comparison between an autorifle and a modern weapon. I do happen to know that there's a .54mm hand cannon that's referred to as a "Poor man's bolter", and there's an Armageddon autorifle that uses 7.62 rounds that is considered to have fairly high stopping power. If you look at the penetration values for weapons in Dark Heresy, it looks like a basic autogun's stopping power isn't all that much different from an assault rifle today, but that's mostly just conjecture.
Range is similarly difficult. Dark Heresy considered the maximum range of an autogun to be 300, but ranges in that system are artificially compacted for game play reasons, so I wouldn't exactly consider them a good yardstick.
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Post by RedsandRoyals on Apr 8, 2014 18:37:27 GMT -5
Given that the "new" Hydra actually doesn't have the Interceptor rule, GW may have stripped out it's fire control system, and made it closer to a ZSU-57-2. I'll have to read the entry and check when I can finally get my hands on a copy.
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Post by jenburdoo on Apr 8, 2014 20:08:17 GMT -5
Especially given some of the Necromunda variants, I would definitely class the autogun as an M-16 (maybe with the durability of an AK). The heavy stubber has been described as anywhere from .30 to .50 caliber -- one illustration in IA Volume VI is a dead ringer for an MG34.
I generally class equipment as akin to its WWII inspirations. For example, I agree that the Marauder is very much a US medium bomber with the role and vague appearance of a heavy. The T-bolt is basically a Mig-3 with armor plating and jets. Comparing them with modern aircraft, I think I'd class their construction and robustness as on par with Cold-War era Soviet jets. US designs are high-tech and high-performance, but delicate and expensive. Soviet ones are low-tech and usually average or poor performance, but extremely tough and inexpensive. Think: US:Eldar/Tau, USSR:Imperial.
Compare the Mig-25 to the F-15 and F-16 which it inspired (due to US intel analysts assuming that its record speed was matched by its other qualities). The Mig-25 was designed specifically as a high-altitude interceptor. It carries four AA missiles to 80,000 feet. It does nothing else. The F-15 and F-16 are multirole air superiority fighters. They can fight and defeat anything in the sky, and with a little conversion anything on the ground too. But they cost tens of millions of dollars and have just as many extremely breakable parts. American aircraft were made of light and expensive titanium -- Soviet ones were made of heavier, but cheaper and just as effective, plain old steel.
The US was flabbergasted by how low-tech and specialized the Mig-25 was once they got hold of one. But despite its ridiculously short range and the fact that the engines have to be replaced whenever they crack Mach 2.8, it does *exactly* what its designers intended it to do. This last applies very well to the remarkably straightforward STC system -- robust equipment that can be made out of any materials desired, is (or was) easy to build and achieves its purpose, even if it doesn't have the flair or high technology of the Eldar or Tau.
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Post by cheminhaler on Apr 9, 2014 14:32:44 GMT -5
Storm Talons are mentioned in the SM codex as being fast enough to keep up with the chapter's assault marines and land speeders (presumably they mean on bikes but don't specify bikes/ jump pack) but the description itself is pretty vague. Bikes themselves can reach 'dizzying speeds', although there is no reference for any actual speed given, the word 'fast' is mentioned several times so at least we know it's quite quick.
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Post by RedsandRoyals on Apr 9, 2014 15:24:10 GMT -5
Here's a bit more I've managed to dig up. Note that the "Cruising speed" is not necessarily the top speed, but it is at least close to it.
The cruising speed of an Aquila Lander is 1,367 mph. An Arvus is about 990mph. Gun cutters vary between the two.
Land speeders have a cruising speed of 170mph.
The version of the SM Scout Bike that humans can use has a cruising speed of 55mph.
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Post by Rolling Thunder on Apr 14, 2014 10:08:36 GMT -5
Imperial Guard infantry doctrine is pretty much set up for fighting Orks. Utter lack of light support weapons, the lightest piece of kit is a drum-fed grenade launcher.
Only the Catachans remember how to snipe. Everyone else is mad for Soviet-style section designated marksmen.
Apparently mortars are an appropriate squad support weapon. So are massive, tripod-mounted autocannons.
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Post by Trooper One-Nine-Seven-Four on Apr 16, 2014 9:36:35 GMT -5
Imperial Guard infantry doctrine is pretty much set up for fighting Orks. Utter lack of light support weapons, the lightest piece of kit is a drum-fed grenade launcher. Only the Catachans remember how to snipe. Everyone else is mad for Soviet-style section designated marksmen. Apparently mortars are an appropriate squad support weapon. So are massive, tripod-mounted autocannons. Yeah, I really wish that we could get heavy stubbers as squad support weapons. I'd love to model some up with a team servicing them, but just cannot justify the cost of getting the bits to do so...
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Post by Julian Sharps on Apr 16, 2014 11:14:30 GMT -5
Also, the Imperial Guard have access to better medical technology than we do. Bionics aside, a medical field kit improves a unit's mission survival rate by 33%. That's not just surviving the fight, that's the chance this thing gives you to avoid being mission-killed when you get shot. Even if it's just a stimulant cocktail to keep the man fighting (and alive) long enough to finish the job, it's still more advanced than anything we have today.
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Post by RedsandRoyals on Apr 16, 2014 12:58:15 GMT -5
Also, the Imperial Guard have access to better medical technology than we do. Bionics aside, a medical field kit improves a unit's mission survival rate by 33%. That's not just surviving the fight, that's the chance this thing gives you to avoid being mission-killed when you get shot. Even if it's just a stimulant cocktail to keep the man fighting (and alive) long enough to finish the job, it's still more advanced than anything we have today. For my own curiosity, where did you find the 33% figure? Please don't say an Abnett book...
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Post by cheminhaler on Apr 16, 2014 13:18:00 GMT -5
FNP is on a 5+ now, so its a 33.3333% chance but could be higher because of the flak save, which is taken on top of that.
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Post by RedsandRoyals on Apr 16, 2014 14:10:12 GMT -5
FnP and most other tabletop stats from the codex are more or less worthless as metrics, since they're so abstract. They're also based primarily on game balance, rather than realism. Stats from the 40k RPGs are more useful for certain things (weapon ranges, vehicle speeds), but some things like medical tech and armor effectiveness are still difficult to judge.
I think the base line of medical tech is probably more advanced than what we have now, but it's availability (particularly bionics) and proper implementation (such as in more primitive regiments and on frontier worlds) varies so widely, I think the best an average Imperial citizen can probably hope for is the same kind of medical care available in poorer nations around the world today.
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Post by Rolling Thunder on Apr 16, 2014 19:49:13 GMT -5
Don't underestimate the power of a good medic; they can keep a unit extremely mission-capable even nowadays.
40K armour penetration stats are off. Apparently, a 20mm revolver autocannon is not capable of punching through power armour. Puhlease.
In fairness, a 20/25mmmm man-packable autocannon makes sense. It really needs a 6 man dedicated team, but it would be extremely useful. I am going to implement this in my games of Tomorrow's War. Whenever those are.
The boltgun concept is retarded.
The lasgun concept, however, is genius. Guaranteed near-infinite ammo; direct LoS accuracy, zero recoil, and increasing damage at proximity; ideal for smaller numbers of troops fighting swarms
Humanity has apparently abandoned the anti-tank guided missile in favour of bazookas and said man-portable autocannons. Also rocket launchers the size of the Panzerschreck.
Flamethrowers are now line infantry weapons. Kind of like Airland Battle at one point.
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Post by cheminhaler on Apr 25, 2014 14:38:31 GMT -5
I hate the point blank executions with boltguns that you get in the novels. Surely if it's explosive you shouldn't be right next to it when it detonates.
The Commissariat have also been clearly issued with the wrong weapon. Oh look , I'm going to execute him... BANG! *explosion*
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