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religion
May 4, 2014 9:58:09 GMT -5
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Post by andres on May 4, 2014 9:58:09 GMT -5
I understand that might be an idiotic question but between the horus heresy novels and the codex i feel lost . Is the worship of the divinity of the emperor mandatory in the present time 40k or it is just a valid alternative to the imperial truth secularism . ?
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Post by RedsandRoyals on May 4, 2014 10:06:50 GMT -5
I understand that might be an idiotic question but between the horus heresy novels and the codex i feel lost . Is the worship of the divinity of the emperor mandatory in the present time 40k or it is just a valid alternative to the imperial truth secularism . ? In current 40k, the Cult of the Emperor is considered the one true religion, and if you don't follow it, you're a filthy heretic. As I recall, the Cult of the Emperor was stared by an Imperial Army officer after the Heresy, and spread quickly across the Imperium until it became it's "official" religion. There's a lot of variation within the cult, and the Ecclesiarchy usually has it's hands full deciding what is, and is not, technically heresy, but all branches accept the Emperor (or some sort of proxy that represents him, like a system's sun, or whatever) as a God and the savior of humanity, and usually ascibe to the beleif that the human form is sacred (hence mutation=bad), and the manifest destiny of humanity is to rule the galaxy (hence xenos=bad. Reds
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religion
May 4, 2014 10:12:00 GMT -5
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Post by emptyhat on May 4, 2014 10:12:00 GMT -5
Mandatory (and you'd better do it right). Imperial secularism is deader than Dorn.
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religion
May 4, 2014 10:32:10 GMT -5
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Post by andres on May 4, 2014 10:32:10 GMT -5
But if you accept the importance and greatness of the emperor but just stop short of recognizing his divinity it surely can't be a problem it is not like tempering with chaos or anything
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Post by yvain on May 4, 2014 10:57:53 GMT -5
The Ecclesiarchy and its various groups are generally against that kind of thinking. Some more than others. May would probably kill you for implying that. The Imperium is very huge so some worlds could probably get away with it. At the very least it would draw the attention of the inquisition, which is usually bad.
Some Space Marines view the Emperor as more of a father or ancient hero figure. The Emperor himself did not want people building religion around him, but that is mostly history now that the Ecclesiarchy is in control.
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Post by RedsandRoyals on May 4, 2014 11:34:03 GMT -5
The central tenant of the Cult of the Emperor is that the Emperor is, in fact, a god. Denying that is heresy, and as Yvain said, there's a good chance it'd also be the last thing you ever did. It's also worth noting that what he said about SM has actually been a bone of contention between the Ecclesiarchy and the Adeptus Astartes since, well, forever. There's currently an uneasy peace between the two groups (the rosarius that SM chaplains carry is a symbol of it), but they've come to blows over it in the past.
Remember, religious tolerance is not a thing in 40k.
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Post by Trooper One-Nine-Seven-Four on May 4, 2014 14:23:25 GMT -5
The Cult of the Emperor, IIRC from the HH novels, got its start just before the Heresy kicked off when the Remembrancer, Euphrati Keeler I believe her name was, started the circulation of the Lectitio Divinitatus pamphlet through the Crusade fleets that basically stated that the Emperor was God. At first, it was really frowned upon and was in itself considered heretical, and higher ups in the Crusade tried to quash it... Then Horus went blinky, and we all kinda know what happened next.
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religion
May 4, 2014 16:42:25 GMT -5
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Post by emptyhat on May 4, 2014 16:42:25 GMT -5
The Cult of the Emperor, IIRC from the HH novels, got its start just before the Heresy kicked off when the Remembrancer, Euphrati Keeler I believe her name was, started the circulation of the Lectitio Divinitatus pamphlet through the Crusade fleets that basically stated that the Emperor was God. At first, it was really frowned upon and was in itself considered heretical, and higher ups in the Crusade tried to quash it... Then Horus went blinky, and we all kinda know what happened next. It started before that in the HH books, the cult already has other members and it is implied that it has been an ongoing response to the Emperor which is part of why he is pushing atheism.
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Post by Trooper One-Nine-Seven-Four on May 4, 2014 18:48:47 GMT -5
Wasn't Keeler the one who kicked it into overdrive, though, when she performed the "miracle" of repelling the daemon, and claimed it was the Emperor acting through her, or somesuch? It's been a while since I've read the novel in which it happened...
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Post by ElegaicRequiem on May 4, 2014 20:36:57 GMT -5
Forget all this nonsense about the Emperor. All you need to believe in is pants.
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Post by Trooper One-Nine-Seven-Four on May 4, 2014 21:02:24 GMT -5
Forget all this nonsense about the Emperor. All you need to believe in is pants. "Teh Emprah's" Pants, Bro-han...
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Post by yvain on May 4, 2014 21:15:53 GMT -5
Forget all this nonsense about the Emperor. All you need to believe in is pants. I always believed no pants was the key to everything. Nearly everything is better with no pants on.
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Post by RedsandRoyals on May 4, 2014 21:27:22 GMT -5
Forget all this nonsense about the Emperor. All you need to believe in is pants. I always believed no pants was the key to everything. Nearly everything is better with no pants on. I've noticed that the people who claim that are those who haven't tried living by those words.
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Post by jenburdoo on May 4, 2014 21:30:41 GMT -5
One of the best Heresy short stories is "The Last Church", about the Emperor shortly before the Great Crusade. The Emperor and Marines with flamers turn up to destroy the last church on Earth, and the priest there lectures the Emperor on how humanity needs religion, and if he doesn't provide any, they'll create it on their own. The way the HH series is going, he will turn out to be right.
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religion
May 5, 2014 1:55:50 GMT -5
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Post by andres on May 5, 2014 1:55:50 GMT -5
Well I should note I have not read the hh novels but rather listened to the audio short version so it may be that my info is incomplete . Nevertheless I think that apart from its secularism imperial ideology seems to have been containing a wider enlightenment project education reforms equality justice It is extremely sad how it all came down to this ....
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Post by sunshine on May 5, 2014 6:11:29 GMT -5
The Emperor was pushing a secular ideology during the great crusade, but after the events of the Horus Heresy that fell by the wayside. People just felt the need for faith when their entire worlds got turned upside down by the heresy. Not to mention that it's pretty hard to argue with a faith that literally repels the daemons that the secularists told you didn't exist.
Of course, the real debate lies in whether the Emperor ever really intended for the secular imperial truth to last, or if the imperial cult was something he secretly planned for (sure, he reprimanded the Word Bearers for it, but that could have been a case of "Too soon guys, you jumped the gun").
Remember, the big "lie" that was put in front of Horus to tempt him was that the Emperor was abandoning them all to ascend to godhood. Of course, whether that is just Chaos lying or misrepresenting the facts to trick Horus, or whether this is actually true is unknown at this point. It is however obvious that Chaos did misrepresent some facts when turning Horus- particularly when it shows a shrine world in the future, with the traitor primarchs statues missing. Horus was so incensed by the lack of a statue commemorating his achievements, when it should have been obvious to him that him turning traitor in itself explains a lack of a statue commemorating him.
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Post by Trooper One-Nine-Seven-Four on May 5, 2014 9:56:58 GMT -5
Remember, the big "lie" that was put in front of Horus to tempt him was that the Emperor was abandoning them all to ascend to godhood. Of course, whether that is just Chaos lying or misrepresenting the facts to trick Horus, or whether this is actually true is unknown at this point. It is however obvious that Chaos did misrepresent some facts when turning Horus- particularly when it shows a shrine world in the future, with the traitor primarchs statues missing. Horus was so incensed by the lack of a statue commemorating his achievements, when it should have been obvious to him that him turning traitor in itself explains a lack of a statue commemorating him. IIRC, it's been pretty strongly hinted that the Emperor's "abandonment" of the Crusade was due to him pursuing research in his lab in the basement (the "Super Basement Extraordinaire TM") of the Palace into tapping into/taking over the Webway so that humans could exploit it for instantaneous (or nearly so) transportation and therefore not have to be dependent upon the Warp (and all of its inherent dangers) for transportation. The Chaos powers latched onto this and twisted the reason to convince/trick Horus that the Emperor was trying to become a god in order to turn him and kick off the Heresy. Then Magnus screwed the experiment when he tried to warn the Emperor about the impending betrayal and essentially caused a Webway/Warp breach into the lab via the apparatus (that would eventually become the Golden Throne) that was being used to conduct the experiments for the research.
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Post by emptyhat on May 5, 2014 10:20:39 GMT -5
The Emperor was pushing a secular ideology during the great crusade, but after the events of the Horus Heresy that fell by the wayside. People just felt the need for faith when their entire worlds got turned upside down by the heresy. Not to mention that it's pretty hard to argue with a faith that literally repels the daemons that the secularists told you didn't exist. Of course, the real debate lies in whether the Emperor ever really intended for the secular imperial truth to last, or if the imperial cult was something he secretly planned for (sure, he reprimanded the Word Bearers for it, but that could have been a case of "Too soon guys, you jumped the gun"). Remember, the big "lie" that was put in front of Horus to tempt him was that the Emperor was abandoning them all to ascend to godhood. Of course, whether that is just Chaos lying or misrepresenting the facts to trick Horus, or whether this is actually true is unknown at this point. It is however obvious that Chaos did misrepresent some facts when turning Horus- particularly when it shows a shrine world in the future, with the traitor primarchs statues missing. Horus was so incensed by the lack of a statue commemorating his achievements, when it should have been obvious to him that him turning traitor in itself explains a lack of a statue commemorating him. Horus was weak, Horus was a fool. He had the whole galaxy in his grasp and he let it slip away.
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Post by cheminhaler on May 6, 2014 9:53:53 GMT -5
The Cult of the Emperor, IIRC from the HH novels, got its start just before the Heresy kicked off when the Remembrancer, Euphrati Keeler I believe her name was, started the circulation of the Lectitio Divinitatus pamphlet through the Crusade fleets that basically stated that the Emperor was God. At first, it was really frowned upon and was in itself considered heretical, and higher ups in the Crusade tried to quash it... Then Horus went blinky, and we all kinda know what happened next. It started before that in the HH books, the cult already has other members and it is implied that it has been an ongoing response to the Emperor which is part of why he is pushing atheism. No. It was Lorgar that wrote the Lectitio Divinatus, ironically. After his total humiliation at the Emperor's hand (and the Ultramarines were involved in this lesson of humiliation) he went on a quest to find a new goal/ new gods to worship, but he states that the Lectitio was his work and that the Book of Lorgar will be a much better sequel.
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Post by ElegaicRequiem on May 6, 2014 11:13:51 GMT -5
And he'll get George Lucas to do the prequel.
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Post by cheminhaler on May 6, 2014 13:53:39 GMT -5
But... but.... I don't believe in George Lucas. It's just one of those made up things, like Santy Claws.
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Post by beaviz81 on May 30, 2014 13:36:45 GMT -5
Remember, the big "lie" that was put in front of Horus to tempt him was that the Emperor was abandoning them all to ascend to godhood. Of course, whether that is just Chaos lying or misrepresenting the facts to trick Horus, or whether this is actually true is unknown at this point. It is however obvious that Chaos did misrepresent some facts when turning Horus- particularly when it shows a shrine world in the future, with the traitor primarchs statues missing. Horus was so incensed by the lack of a statue commemorating his achievements, when it should have been obvious to him that him turning traitor in itself explains a lack of a statue commemorating him. IIRC, it's been pretty strongly hinted that the Emperor's "abandonment" of the Crusade was due to him pursuing research in his lab in the basement (the "Super Basement Extraordinaire TM") of the Palace into tapping into/taking over the Webway so that humans could exploit it for instantaneous (or nearly so) transportation and therefore not have to be dependent upon the Warp (and all of its inherent dangers) for transportation. The Chaos powers latched onto this and twisted the reason to convince/trick Horus that the Emperor was trying to become a god in order to turn him and kick off the Heresy. Then Magnus screwed the experiment when he tried to warn the Emperor about the impending betrayal and essentially caused a Webway/Warp breach into the lab via the apparatus (that would eventually become the Golden Throne) that was being used to conduct the experiments for the research. It wasn't a lie. They showed the current state of the IOM to Horus, they just didn't tell him the whole truth.
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