why... can't chaos up-tech?

[treadiculous]

So i was thinking about how annoying it is that the imperium cannot devise new concepts or ideas due to the ridiculous mechanicus restrictions..

and got to thinking that surely the followers of chaos, when they throw of the old god and hurl down the expectancies of mankind they realise they are free to think and can start to design, build and implement new tech and inventions.

surely this would lend chaos (or rather the intelligent rebellion who are branded heretic) the upper hand as they are able to build far better weapons and equipment.

this line of thinking also goes to the eldar and tau - why are they limited in what they can design - surely the slab-sided behemoths of the imperial guard would be easy pickings for these advanced races?

should we not open the gates to intelligent heretics and encourage the development of wargear in humanities fight for existence across the 41st milllenium?


(codex astra intelligentus anyone?)

[Rolling Thunder]

Because Chaos drives you insane.
Because Chaos encourages the use of Chaos as a weapon, which stifles R&D into non-warp tech.
Because 98% of break-away-from-Imperium heresy is Chaotic.
And because R&D is expensive, complex and awkward.
Because, fundamentally, railguns and direct energy weapons are not per se better than conventional chemical-energy slugthrowers.

[RedsandRoyals]

Actually, the simple answer is that the Codex writers are lazy, or simply don't feel the need to be creative in terms of gear. The CSM Codex is designed to depict a traitor legion. That means they're using old Imperial equipment from when they first fled in to the Eye of Terror, and the codex writers probably can't be bothered to figure out that the CSM would be able to update their arsenal over the thousands of years that have passed. It's also "Army Flavor" to have them use older stuff.

From the fluff perspective, it's worth remembering that, by and large, the traditional followers of Chaos apparently still subscribes to the prejudices and superstitions about technology that the Imperium (remember, they're technically a schism group of Imperial culture, even with all the Chaos worship and mind bending over the years). Machine Spirits are to be venerated, technology is to be feared, and old, tried, and tested patterns are best. Most of their technological know-how comes from former Techpriests, now considered Hereteks. There may be the occasional Heretek who is more interested in creating new designs, but most in the fluff are more focused on some sort way of infusing warp energy in to weapons. They also still hold the prejudices against new technology that are present in nearly all techpriests.

As for what RT said...

- It does, but insanity can lead to inspiration, so it doesn't really factor in that much.
- Arguably, Chaos drives R&D, but just in the direction of making warp-infused weaponry, or new terror weapons
- See above, this is the core problem
- To build on this, resources for R&D, as well as a stable environment to do it in, are few and far between in the Eye of Terror or the Maelstrom. That doesn't help either.
- What he said.

In the 40k RPGs, you'll find a bit more weapon and tech diversity, both for the Imperium and the followers of Chaos.

[emptyhat]

Hybrid deamon war engines seems to be the direction the Codex writers have taken with chaos getting away from Imperial restrictions.

And as for inspiration. there is a reason they are called the ruinous powers. There could probably be a decent novel written about a chaos follower being inspired to create something wonderful by the powers of chaos only to have his muse turn around and troll her/him.

The slab sided, fail tanks of the Imperium are also part of the visual aesthetic and spirit of the game.

[Aeon]

I agree with Reds, here. Chaos forces generally exist within the Eye of Terror, where there isn't really a place to set up a lab, or a factory to develop new technology. They are too focused on warp magic. They use raw warp energy as their advancements. Here is how I would view each Chaos god in terms of technology

Khorne: He is the most single minded god of them all: kill, kill, kill. His troops are concerned with battle, and only battle. His traitor and chaos space marines have bolters, lascannons and plasma guns, but more so, they have chain axes, power swords and power fists, so what more do they need? I'd view Khorne as the second least scientific god, and his forces are probably not much different

Nurgle: I would say Nurgle is the most scientific of them all. His forces have been known to use virus and plague weaponry and bombs that can decimate entire planets.

Tzeentch: Easily the farthest from being scientific, Tzeentch is all about plots and sorcerery. Who needs new guns when you have raw psychic power.

Slaanesh: Hard to really say. Fabius Bile is a Slaanesh worshipper, and he makes some crazy scientific inventions, but he's only one Marine. Slaanesh is all about personal satisfaction. Smex, drugs and rock and roll, basically. Who needs science when you have cocaine and a gun that shoots noise?

All in all, I'd say that the reason each codex does not see bigger and badder weapons, is because it's a game, not real life. If every rendition of the game introduced more devastating weapons, then eventually the game would just be a nuke fest and it wouldn't be any fun. I personally find the idea of tech-phobia pretty interesting. It's just part of the setting. There might not be an excellent explanation for it, but it's there.

Try to keep in mind, however, that there are new kinds of weapons in each codex, usually. Or if not new weapons, new units and abilities. In this current codex, we got the Storm Shard mortar, the bullgryn and the frag gauntlet. In the codex before this, the hotshot lasgun was re-introduced from earlier editions, replacing the hell gun, but this time, it was Ap3, which was new. Perhaps this could be taken as an advancement in technology?

I know a lot of players get peeved off about the lack of technological advancement, but remember one last thing: This game has been around for 30+ years, and it is still set in the 41st millenium, so it's not like thousands of years are going by with each edition of the game Also consider the size of the Imperium - it would be incredibly hard to spread technology across BILLIONS of Imperial Worlds. Weapon stats changed very little throughout the game's existance, but try to think about it from a fluff perspective. What I mean is, patterns of weapons could have changed. It's the same weapon, but maybe a slightly improved or more accurate or lighter weight version. I have seen mention of "new versions" of lasguns, but have the same stats because it's technically the same technology.

And as for that comment about the Tau, you shuddup because it's clearly states in the Tau fluff that they are constantly developing technology. In this codex they got the Riptide, and is even states that is a new form of battle suit.

And lastly, for the eldar, they are an ancient race. They are a very psychically powerful race, who are more concerned with preserving their lives than developing new technology. Their technology is pretty much almost top of the line anyway

[treadiculous]

you've made a good number of points and I can see that there are examples of development with each new codex:

the 4th/5th ed brought air(valkyrie)and anti-air systems(hydra), introduced cluster munition missiles (manticore and nukes(deathstrikes).

I also love the aesthetic of the leman russ and its heritage in the WWI tanks, as well as the mental image of future gothic industry / grimdark.

I guess I am confused about what I like - something which stems from the conflict between rules mechanic and background yer also from the appeal of WWI tanks charging full speed into battle with space elves and scary monsters.

There's also something to be said for the appeal of lords commanders roaming around with swords and shields and jump packs. (and that knights get massive walker suits rather than horses)

[emptyhat]

Jul 6, 2014 0:58:07 GMT -5 Aeon said:

Nurgle: I would say Nurgle is the most scientific of them all. His forces have been known to use virus and plague weaponry and bombs that can decimate entire planets.

And of course Grandfather Nurgle is constantly researching and inventing new plagues.

Jul 6, 2014 0:58:07 GMT -5 Aeon said:

I know a lot of players get peeved off about the lack of technological advancement, but remember one last thing: This game has been around for 30+ years, and it is still set in the 41st millennium....
And as for that comment about the Tau, you shuddup because it's clearly states in the Tau fluff that they are constantly developing technology. In this codex they got the Riptide, and is even states that is a new form of battle suit.

And lastly, for the eldar, they are an ancient race. They are a very psychically powerful race, who are more concerned with preserving their lives than developing new technology. Their technology is pretty much almost top of the line anyway

The game certainly seems to have a tech ceiling. One that relates to the imagination of 30 years ago. A friend of mine was put off because there were no nanotech civilisations. The closest was the Necrons who use it in such a limited way, after that the Tau are maybe heading in that direction. It shouldn't really be surprising that the two newest races are the ones who reflect more recent mainstream ideas in scifi but they still need to be shoehorned into the older idea of what goes. That's the same reason we have all the fantasy elements like deamons isn't it? It was all the rage back then but scifi sees a lot more exclusively secular now.

[Aeon]

But warhammer 40,000 shouldn't have to adapt to what every sci-fi player or enthusiast is into. To your friend: So what if there's no nano technology? 40k is its own thing. It's about the Imperium of Mankind that is so xenophobic, they'll nuke their own planets to death just to get rid of an ork invasion. They have good reason to be as well. It's a story about corruption, and living green fungus, and robot zombies that want to destroy all life, and futuristic magic, technology mixing with gods, goat footed blue skinned fish people with pulse weaponry and gundam suits, elves with guns that shoot razor discs, and their evil cousins who just want to enslave and have sex with everything.

Warhammer 40k HAS tons of flavor in it. I hate it when the fluff changes, because the game should have its rules evolve. Not its setting.

[RedsandRoyals]

There's an argument to be made, though, for progressing the story, especially through campaigns (Armageddon and the Eye of Terror, for instance). I'm not a fan of stupid retcons or hugely radical changes to armies with no real justification, I but I feel some evidence of change and progressing in a setting is, well, good, especially if it stems from events that involve the fans.

[Rolling Thunder]

40K is gothic, which is a romantic (thus inherently anti-rational, thus anti-scientific) setting. It's emotional, dark, dramatic, and inherently irrational and incomprehensible. I'm very guilty of trying to rationalize it (partly because I find it goes OTT on the TEHR IS ANLY WAAAAARGH/DA [Insert enemy here] IS UNBEATABLEZ), but functionally you can only go so far with that before things begin to break down.

You want rational, Ambush Alley's Tomorrow's War will provide that.

[emptyhat]

@aeon I wasn't saying 40k should have to change. Of course my friend wasn't obliged to play either and after sevral conversations about it decided it wasn't for them.

[Kaikelx]

One thing I found attractive about the 40k setting is how intrinsically different it is from the world we live in. As in, technology gets powered by faith as much as science. Hell, the entire reason the Orks are even a threat on a galactic scale is because their technology that shouldn't work still DOES because enough them believe it will work that it works. See also Yarrick's functional immortality theory (The Orks believe he can't die, and as a result Yarrick has lived far longer than average).

Also, high technology is very dangerous in 40k as well. The whole men of iron incident aside, daemons can posses pieces of technology. Compound this with the fact that the initiative/creativity/open-mindedness (traits favored for creating something "new" ) also makes one vulnerable to possession, and you've got an Imperium that is harsh and dogmatic for as much necessity as dog-kicking. There's also the fact that the Imperium has fallen a long way from what it once was. Current tech for the Imperium is in all likely hood inferior to older, surviving examples of technology. This bred the mindsight that the older and more proven a tech is, the better it is, compared to new "untested" things. Compare a Leman Russ Vanquisher to the regular variant for example.

As for the Eldar, they are for all intents and purposes a dying race. Hell, their grand long plan for fighting the chaos gods has step 1 as being "When enough of us have died". It's my bet they aren't exactly focused on developing new tech, especially when they already have such a lead over everyone else.

Finally, the Imperium is "developing" "new" technology, but at an excruciatingly slow pace. Remember, the Imperium is so vast that a simple estimate of the number of systems controlled is completely unfeasible. There's also the fact that Chaos forces tend to raid/pilfer/reverse engineer things from the Imperials. (Falchion escot/Infidel raider)

[Lord General Armstrong]

Maybe it's because of the Dark Mechanicus, perhaps they too have an over reliance on STC designs, perhaps being trapped in the void for untold millennia have crippled their ability to draft new designs. Or perhaps they too are working towards the quest for knowledge, and again being trapped in the warp has halted their ability to find other STC designs. Then again, they make due with what they have, forging daemon engines and entwining their technology with the powers of the warp.

[that1guy]

Mmmmaybe because chaos player's lack the imagination to break the rules? I'm currently in the middle of a bio-predator tank conversion replacing the standard astartes weaponry for 'nid bitz. It would be easier for chaos to reverse engineer xeno's tech upgrades from races such as the Eldar, Tau... and if you dare, possibly even necron. I think Chaos player's should have access to these spiffy construction vehicles that these gene stealer cultist's ride around in... and land speeder's but that's another thread.

[Rolling Thunder]

Ironically, pretty much all the existing races use the same weapons, just at different levels of complexity:

Kinetic energy weapons (chemical, magnetic field, muscular and gravetic propulsion)
Chemical energy weapons (incendiary, munroe effect, acid, HE, shrapnel/wire constriction/etc)
Directed energy (laser, microwave, magnetically-contained plasma)
Warp rift
Projected gravity rifts/destabilization


Speaking of, I need to build the Cougar HE kit I have for my cultist legion.

[emptyhat]

Aren't you basically boiling it down to all the races making use of the laws of physics to hurt people; or in the case of warp-tech the lack thereof?

[that1guy]

Apparently the final step between Warp Smith and Obliterator is replacing your thumbs with lascannon's. I imagine it does reduce productivity in the dark forges of chaos.

  I like to imagine the R&D department keeps getting sacrificed to the dark Gods.

[dougeye]

Because demons don't up tech they up warp with demonic power!

[Paimon]

Also, there is nanotech, it turned evil, and tried to kill everyone. As per usual.

[emptyhat]

Jul 14, 2017 16:49:00 GMT -5 Paimon said:

Also, there is nanotech, it turned evil, and tried to kill everyone. As per usual.

Wait, did it turn evil and try and kill everyone.... or did it realise everyone was evil and try and kill everyone?

Eitherway no one likes Smatter.

[that1guy]

You know, I was thinking about this while off in real life and I stand by my statement that the R&D department keeps getting sacrificed to the dark gods, or even the temper of chaos.
Think about this, you ever see that number on top of a light bulb? It says 1001W. Do you know why? It took the bloke who invented it 1,000 failures before producing one experimental light bulb that worked.

Do you think a Chaos champion is going to allow some poor mortal in the R&D department to fail 1,000 times? You think he's going to say; "it's okay, as long as you tried your hardest!" No, he's going to slaughter that fool so that he no longer has to deal with his incompetent failures and appoint who ever is left (regardless of qualifications) to take over his place, most likely standing in the same blood stain of the guy who was working there before them!

[mantis]

As others have said, stagnantion is at the core of 40k lore but there are other reasons.

As Red mentioned the world was established 30 years ago with influences like Dune, Bladerunner, Star Wars, 2000AD Comics, Asimov, Lovecraft, Heinlein etc. leading to a distinct flavour. Hell look at the Praetorians. Despite them being loved by many (myself included) why did GW produce a special edition line of metal figures specifically in homage to the movie Zulu? Because for a particular generation of men(coincidently the one that established and dominated the company for its first 20 years) it is iconic, the British Western.

The other one is the established sandbox of fantasy worlds. Look at Lord of the Rings, why after 2500 years is Middle-Earth still at a Dark Age/Early Medieval level of technology? Because Tolkein was inspired by his love of European folklore and in particular Saxon England. He chose that period because he liked the flavour and mythology, the realism of progress is unimportant and even detrimental to Tolkein's stories - there's also his distaste for the heartlessness of mechanisation but you get what I mean.

Then there's something that I'm surprised 40k loremakers don't make use of more often. The Emperor took over Earth and then the galaxy circa M30. There's twenty-eight thousand years in there. We know humanity's golden age lasted from M15-M25 before anarchy spread across the galaxy, we know of the disasters that were the Men of Stone and Iron. While that period is pretty unknown I have no doubt that the Emperor put certain limits on Imperial technology even back then, because tales -however fragmented- of AI, nanotechnology, democracy, cyber societies etc. and how they caused disaster for Humanity were known. I feel there is an interesting vein of motivation there, even if such information is limited to the galactic elite. It is not only Chaos but the horrors of the 'advanced' past that the Imperium has to stand guard against.

Finally there's the bloody size of the Imperium! Imagine you develop some advanced automated farming machine on a fairly well-off safe world that allows individuals to occassionally tinker in their shed. By the time it spreads across the planet you might be dead, by the time the Mechanicum arrives to sanctify the thing it could be centuries- and they might decide its an abomination and end it there. But say its given a robotic thumbs-up and begins to be exported. Well some agri-worlds might reject it because their reliance on slaves or serfs is as much societal as economical, some might reject it because there's a guild with a monopoly on farming machinery. The ficklety of the warp will lead to shipments being lost, changes in the warp causing safe, quick routes now taking decades or disappearing entirely. By now its been over 1,000 years and your baby is turning up on other worlds throughout the Sector. But then there's a technophobic primitivist (but Ministorum friendly) revolution on Ruritanum 6, losing you a market. Orks slaughter the population of Ynyx Majoris, losing another market though your harvesters do turn up again, converted into Thrasha tanks. Oh dear Hive Fleet Kilroy just ate your world. And half the Sector. The legacy, a few hundred harvesters scattered across the region. Some may be reverse engineered but no doubt controlled. Others would eventually end up rusting on the side of country roads, old peasants talking about seeing one operational when they were a kid to the interest of no one in the pub.

The Imperium is chaotic, and simple logistics makes it hard even for the state to role out reforms and new designs across the galaxy.