|
|
Post by andres on Aug 6, 2014 7:31:38 GMT -5
So my friend runs a land raider with knights in it and a librarian that gives 4+ invulnerable . How on earth can this be killed ?
|
|
|
|
Post by emptyhat on Aug 6, 2014 10:48:27 GMT -5
Depends what you both are running but I'd suggest hitting it with a couple of basilisks, with any luck you'll maroon them far away from your lines early on and either have the chance to concentrate on something else or just keep pounding them with arty until the Librarian goes down.
|
|
|
|
Post by Casiarius on Aug 6, 2014 17:36:56 GMT -5
I'm not familiar with knights, but the usual problem with Terminators is that they need their transport to get them into the fight, because they're not very impressive when waddling across the table. If you could bust their Land Raider in the first turn or two, they'd be easier to deal with. An infantry blob with five Lascannons and "Bring it Down!" might manage it, or a suicidal deep strike by some Storm Troopers with melta weapons might do it. A Vanquisher that didn't miss could do it (Pask can reroll misses, or you could have a Psyker give it Prescience). The Melta Cannon on a Devil Dog could destroy a Land Raider and then take AP 1 potshots at the Terminators when they disembark. You can devote a fair amount of points to destroying a Land Raider and still come out on top, since it costs so many points itself. Once you get the Terminators on foot, you can throw the kitchen sink at them until they fail their saves.
|
|
|
|
Post by emptyhat on Aug 6, 2014 18:32:07 GMT -5
I think the terminators are pretty pricey too. Each model has T5 as long as it is flanked by another knight on each side. They don't have ranged weapons and they have a special attack that is pretty decent at blowing up a tank but they can only do it once. I'm surprised that they don't have a 3+ invulnerable without the Librarian since they have those shields.
I doubt any guard unit can handle them in combat either, you need a decent unit of Nobz to make a good fight of it. But you might be able to tarpit them with a blob squad and Commissar.
|
|
|
|
Post by Paradill on Aug 6, 2014 19:44:50 GMT -5
As has been said previously you need to focus on taking out that land raider fairly early on. Once they are stumbling around with no transport you can pick and choose how you deal with them.
Use your long range firepower to pick them off slowly, throw everything you have at them, or my personal favourite: ignore them. With some basic manoeuvring and as long as deployment allows, you might be able to just ignore them and focus on winning.
You are long range might, they are close combat beasts, just make sure you use that to your advantage.
|
|
|
|
Post by cheminhaler on Aug 7, 2014 14:30:25 GMT -5
I think the terminators are pretty pricey too. Each model has T5 as long as it is flanked by another knight on each side. They don't have ranged weapons and they have a special attack that is pretty decent at blowing up a tank but they can only do it once. I'm surprised that they don't have a 3+ invulnerable without the Librarian since they have those shields. They're 4 points short of an Infantry squad per model. Fortress of Shields means that any knight has to be in base contact with 2 others to get +1T, so they'll be bunched together at bizarre angles; good for blast marker attacks. Unfortunately they have stormshields and maces of absolution (power mace with ap4 +2 to strength and once per game they can go smite and inflict strength 10 attacks at normal initiative). Yeah; you need to take the land raider down at all costs, despite the librarian. You need to spam lascannon fire at it. Vendettas will arrive too late; they have to be on infantry. |
|
|
|
Post by emptyhat on Aug 8, 2014 1:46:24 GMT -5
I think the terminators are pretty pricey too. Each model has T5 as long as it is flanked by another knight on each side. They don't have ranged weapons and they have a special attack that is pretty decent at blowing up a tank but they can only do it once. I'm surprised that they don't have a 3+ invulnerable without the Librarian since they have those shields. They're 4 points short of an Infantry squad per model. Fortress of Shields means that any knight has to be in base contact with 2 others to get +1T, so they'll be bunched together at bizarre angles; good for blast marker attacks. Unfortunately they have stormshields and maces of absolution (power mace with ap4 +2 to strength and once per game they can go smite and inflict strength 10 attacks at normal initiative). Yeah; you need to take the land raider down at all costs, despite the librarian. You need to spam lascannon fire at it. Vendettas will arrive too late; they have to be on infantry. Stormshields give 3+ invulnerable don't they? |
|
|
|
Post by yvain on Aug 8, 2014 11:24:09 GMT -5
They're 4 points short of an Infantry squad per model. Fortress of Shields means that any knight has to be in base contact with 2 others to get +1T, so they'll be bunched together at bizarre angles; good for blast marker attacks. Unfortunately they have stormshields and maces of absolution (power mace with ap4 +2 to strength and once per game they can go smite and inflict strength 10 attacks at normal initiative). Yeah; you need to take the land raider down at all costs, despite the librarian. You need to spam lascannon fire at it. Vendettas will arrive too late; they have to be on infantry. Stormshields give 3+ invulnerable don't they? A Wvyern and some mass lasguns will take care of them pretty easily once they are out of the transport. |
|
|
|
Post by cheminhaler on Aug 8, 2014 14:06:38 GMT -5
Stormshields give 3+ invulnerable don't they? Yes, but the librarian's piece of equipment is basically a force field that covers the land raider, so not only do they have 3++ but the librarian gives the L/R a 4++ as well. |
|
|
|
Post by yvain on Aug 8, 2014 15:29:23 GMT -5
That is base almost 600 points. That is enough that you should be able to focus your anti-tank fire power on it. All you need to do is stun or immobilize it and you neuter the Knights. With the amount of fire power you can generate from a standard guard list this should not be a problem. In 2 turns it should be stopped or destroyed. If it isn't then you have some bait squads to absorb that charge. In addition, there is also the pinning order which you should not forget.
The changes to vehicles in general have convinced me that having infantry based lascannons is crucial to your anti-tank net. Mostly it is because of ignore cover, but also because of tank hunters. Regardless, we still have a ton of anti-tank options that can be buffed like never before. I don't think it will be that bad. 2 of them though might be a problem.
|
|
|
|
Post by treadiculous on Aug 9, 2014 1:10:00 GMT -5
infantry lascannons with sentinel lascannons and a bucket loads of infantry with lasguns will do the trick, deploy wide so he has to choose who to go for and the closer he gets the more flanked he becomes. He'll also have a hard time killing enough to make the investment worthwhile.
What else are you likely to be facing aside from his deathstar?
|
|
|
|
Post by andres on Aug 9, 2014 3:14:39 GMT -5
It is a small battle ... He brings another group of terminators a couple of bikes and two tacticals along with a command squad with a special standard that makes his bolt guns salvo weapons .....
If I had a bigger force things would have been easier but I am still new and only have few choices ....
I run a 4 vet squads 2 with flamers and 2 with plasma ..... The normal termies fall easily two plasma but the Knights are a trickier proposition .
Last time a deep striked a group of melts scions next to his land raider .... they did nothing and were cooked to death by a flame cannon next round
|
|
|
|
Post by emptyhat on Aug 9, 2014 8:34:53 GMT -5
Well if the landraider has a 4+ invulnerable then sometimes scions will work and sometimes it will get lucky and shrug off all their hits. Either way they'll be dead the next turn and won't be able to press it until its luck runs out. Sometimes it will work sometimes it won't.
That's why you are hurting for something longer range that can fire for three turns before t is destroyed. If you have that, preferably a couple of things that can do that then the odds start to swing against your friend ever making good on all those points they've plunked down on those knights.
|
|
|
|
Post by Casiarius on Aug 9, 2014 11:17:11 GMT -5
Given your opponent's love of Terminators, I'd be tempted to field a Leman Russ Executioner with plasma cannon sponsons. Since the Knights, in particular, need to be in base-to-base contact, all those blast templates should produce a satisfying number of AP 2 hits.
Since I'm partial to Hellhounds, I'd also try out a Devil Dog on that Land Raider. The melta cannon is fairly accurate against big vehicles, and since it is an AP 1 blast, it can also produce a lot of wounds against disembarked knights.
What kind of Land Raider is that? The regular old Helios, or something else?
And do you find that Veteran Squads armed with flamers are really a good idea? I like to take the heavy flamer, but giving BS 4 Vets ordinary flamers seems like a waste.
|
|
|
|
Post by cheminhaler on Aug 10, 2014 13:40:35 GMT -5
What kind of Land Raider is that? The regular old Helios, or something else? Sounds like a standard l/r redeemer with flamestorm cannons on the side, t/l assault cannon on the front, frag assault launchers and an optional multimelta on top. They have slightly more transport capacity than the standard lascannon/ godhammer variety but less than the crusader. |
|
|
|
Post by Casiarius on Aug 10, 2014 14:36:56 GMT -5
My Space Marine terminology is so rusty I had to look it up. The default version with all the lascannons is the Land Raider Phobos.
The Redeemer actually seems less dangerous to a Guard army, since the infantry that it would roast with its giant flamers are already going to be killed in melee by the Terminators.
Given that these Marines don't seem to have a superabundance of anti-tank weapons (other than Terminators punching things) it seems like tanks that can kill Land Raiders and/or Terminators is the way to go.
|
|
|
|
Post by cheminhaler on Aug 10, 2014 15:53:51 GMT -5
The flamers cancel out all cover saves and insta roast all infantry and cavalry. Having had one used against me back in 5th edition, it was pretty horrible. I've got one half assembled.
Agree on the lack of anti-tank, except that they can smite at s10 once per game they have no power fists or thunder hammers but the basic S6 attack can still get light vehicles like sentinels.
Seems weird to me to design a marine army with no heavy support slots. It's a small game but there's Dark Angels for you.
|
|
|
|
Post by emptyhat on Aug 10, 2014 16:43:08 GMT -5
It can help cut down on potential overwatch, or the possibility of the terminators wrecking one squad in CC only to be shot apart point blank by another platoon but I do agree with you.
|
|
|
|
Post by andres on Aug 16, 2014 13:10:55 GMT -5
Nothing of what I have works lascanons barely glance it and suicide squads with melta guns get one chance at it .... demolitions squad in chimera have to survive 1 turn next to heavy flamers and charging knights
|
|
|
|
Post by gamma016 on Aug 16, 2014 13:41:40 GMT -5
Maybe try a devil dog with hull multi melta, or a vanquisher. They should be able to stay safely away and pop a land raider.
|
|
|
|
Post by emptyhat on Aug 16, 2014 18:56:51 GMT -5
If the best firepower you've got are the lascannons then concentrate fire on it as much as possible, then drop your Storm troopers on it if you need to. Sometimes it'll work sometimes the dice will be unkind. Basilisks might help if you expand your collection.
|
|
|
|
Post by dangerrod on Aug 21, 2014 1:13:16 GMT -5
I can't believe no ones mentioned Pask in a Punisher Tank!!
With M/Melta sponsons and a hull heavy bolter, he should with rending alone stop it in a turn
Trust me, I've taken out so many other Russ's and AV14 tanks with him. In fact at the last tournament he managed to rip off 7 hull points off a Stompa in one turn! (and that included a 4+ INVUL save)
He's a beast, if you want to kill AV14, he's your man, just be sure to bubble wrap him correctly so he doesn't get countercharged and watch him kill everything!
He's even better if you can get prescience off on him!
Your other options are really only Lascannons in blobs and melta stormtroopers or veterans
The manticore back in 6th Ed would have easily been enough to strip hull points, basilisks are ok, but aren't really going to pop it in one turn.
Just strip hull points off! The more shots at it the better. One shot weapons are unlikely to do kill it, especially with a 4+ INVUL
Your other option is to just completely ignore it and its contents, just stick a 50 man conscript squad with a couple of priests and a commissar in there and watch him spend 3 turns trying to dig themselves out. Thats a hell of an expensive squad he's running. Just ignore it, kill everything else and grab objectives off him elsewhere!
People tend to get tunnel visioned into killing death star units like that, when the obvious answer is to just ignore them! Unless you have a direct counter to them, just ignore them and get on with the rest of the game!
|
|
|
|
Post by Julian Sharps on Sept 15, 2014 14:41:05 GMT -5
I second the Pasknisher suggestion, although I also suggest that he be backed up by a pair of Vanquishers for cracking the Land Raider (the Vanquishers should be in a separate squadron so that Pask can shoot at the contents as soon as he's within range).
Hey, Dangerrod, care to help out with the IGMB Tactica Imperialis project? We need people to write unit reviews and rebuttals, and the more the merrier.
|
|
|
|
Post by emptyhat on Sept 15, 2014 23:37:06 GMT -5
Knights can take a lot of punishment. Cracking the transport at 24", even if it is further from your lines because you have been advancing seems risky.
|
|
