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Post by andres on Apr 21, 2015 16:46:27 GMT -5
Hello do we roll for dangerous terrain tests when scions deep strike on difficult or dangerous terrain ? What about when they scatter after a grav chute insersion ? the rules page 168 states units with move through cover automatically pass dangerous terrain tests . But does that apply in those cases ?
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Post by yvain on Apr 21, 2015 23:55:26 GMT -5
You answered your own question. No dangerous terrain tests for Stormtroopers.
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Post by andres on Apr 22, 2015 1:23:47 GMT -5
I love them again then
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Post by Rolling Thunder on Apr 26, 2015 16:26:56 GMT -5
Oh, are they finally usable?
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Post by Cuthbo on Apr 27, 2015 1:52:58 GMT -5
I love stormies, and still use them regularly, but then I also field rough riders and sentinels in abundance, the meta has really never bothered me.
Stormies used to be great when we had Al'Rahiem and outflanking veteran squads. The chaos those units could cause in the opponents backfield was amazing, allowing my foot platoons time to cross the field and crush the survivors in a crossfire.
That synergy is lost somewhat now with the loss of those outflanking support troops and means you have to invest more points into the stormies to make their presence felt and have them survive long enough to create the crossfire.
The move through cover ability really helps you land your guys in the right place without fear of losing guys before they can fight.
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Post by emptyhat on Apr 27, 2015 15:48:49 GMT -5
Being scoring units now is good too. That and putting them where they can take over an enemy fortification or on the unshielded facing of a knight.
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Post by andres on Apr 27, 2015 18:26:00 GMT -5
If only volley guns were not salvo .... you could troll Meq to no end
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Post by Captain Zapp Brannigan on Apr 27, 2015 19:55:51 GMT -5
Hello do we roll for dangerous terrain tests when scions deep strike on difficult or dangerous terrain ? What about when they scatter after a grav chute insersion ? the rules page 168 states units with move through cover automatically pass dangerous terrain tests . But does that apply in those cases ? Does this only apply for Grav Chute insertion or normal deep striking as well?
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Post by yvain on Apr 27, 2015 20:04:06 GMT -5
Oh, are they finally usable? No they are still crappy. They are over priced and the loss special operations hurts. It would have really worked well with the new special weapon options. They basically function the same as before, in that in the right situation they can be useful, but 90% of the time you are better off with Veterans. The only improvement is their own orders from the ST book. However, that book is garbage as it has next to no options, crappy formations, and using it doesn't improve the units (IE only 2 wound Commander with not refractor field, only one order still)
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Post by yvain on Apr 27, 2015 20:06:01 GMT -5
Hello do we roll for dangerous terrain tests when scions deep strike on difficult or dangerous terrain ? What about when they scatter after a grav chute insersion ? the rules page 168 states units with move through cover automatically pass dangerous terrain tests . But does that apply in those cases ? Does this only apply for Grav Chute insertion or normal deep striking as well? Move through cover means you auto pass your terrain tests so in both regular and grav chute you are immune to the DT penalty.
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Post by Cuthbo on Apr 28, 2015 6:41:58 GMT -5
Oh, are they finally usable? No they are still crappy. They are over priced and the loss special operations hurts. It would have really worked well with the new special weapon options. They basically function the same as before, in that in the right situation they can be useful, but 90% of the time you are better off with Veterans. The only improvement is their own orders from the ST book. However, that book is garbage as it has next to no options, crappy formations, and using it doesn't improve the units (IE only 2 wound Commander with not refractor field, only one order still) I find that my veterans are getting left at home more and more often due to the loss of outflank. My need for backfield scoring units has stayed yet the stormies are the only unit who can fill this void and they work well for me. Veterans are now just BS4 line squads, and I find that the humble standard trooper does the job just as well. I also imagine that the terrain on the tables being used in certain areas counts for a lot when it come to certain units. We rarely play with less than 60% terrain, with at least 25% of that as LoS blocking pieces. I don't use my Stormies as suicide squads, rather I deploy them into cover on a flank that I have hammered with my line squads and use them to squash the opponent into a corner. I played a game recently against eldar with my standard 1000 point infantry list, supported by a 500 point stormie platoon and a 500 point death rider platoon. We where playing short table edges, my Infantry dug in along my board edge and hammered his left flank, the stormies came in turn 2, dropped into cover on the left and stung a few units. My cavalry came in turn 3 and rolled up the right en mass, while my infantry advanced on the centre, game ended turn 5 with his wraithknight the only model on the board. Now our gaming group are by no means hardcore tournament players, and we play a lot of non standard games, but in my experience I think stormies are underutilised. Their move through cover allows them to deploy in cover out of danger and then advance in support of your forces or take on a weakly defended objective or key unit. Sure I have had games where they fail to impress, but thats the nature of this game. Cheers, Cuthbo
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Post by yvain on Apr 28, 2015 16:01:56 GMT -5
They aren't useless it is just in general they are over shadowed. More often than not even the ideal situation for them it is one where they are in over their head because of the price to utility ratio. You are right in that having a clutch deep striker in your back pocket is nice, but once they land you have an expensive not so durable unit with short range and questionable killing power. They lost reroll deep strike and they are not OS in the standard guard book, so they have problems ninjaing objectives. They function better as a key unit killer hence the suicide strat.
Veterans are far more than line units. They still your most damaging general scoring unit. The 3 special weapons really makes thing is what makes them great. Statistically having more regular lasguns in the base unit (10 vs 5 ST) will make up for the loss of AP 3 and the added special weapons and bodies will in general make them more durable especially in higher point games where people can leverage a lot of AP4 to one turn out stormtroopers. So in general Vets in a transport by air or on the ground will be of more use.
That said, that is just the "mathhammering" of it (without the math if you understand my meaning). Your results within your meta will vary. If you go ST and go in big it will be a 50/50 thing. Meaning when things go right you will clean house, if they go wrong the penalty is high. Veterans would be a reliable all purpose choice.
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Post by yvain on Apr 28, 2015 17:29:00 GMT -5
Unrelated, but how are new Death Riders working out for you? I only have 10 riders so I would need to convert three more to use the formation, but I am tempted.
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Post by Cuthbo on Apr 29, 2015 5:14:21 GMT -5
When mixed with a transport then the veterans increase in value true, but I don't use them. My guys are foot in the extreme, pushing 4000 points and don't have a single tank , the only armour I run is sentinels and one day some rapiers, Cyclops and sabre teams. I love them, I want more but my converted guys are expensive to build. haha The biggest challenge is using terrain to hide them from fire and waiting for that perfect time to launch the attack. I find keeping them in reserve is a good way to keep them safe and then be able to strike where your line is faltering later in the game. Played a game against almost all bike mounted space marines, they smashed my infantry lines and had me on the ropes on turn 2, but when the riders arrived from reserves they completely turned the game around giving me the win. What is the formation, I haven't seen it?
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Post by yvain on May 1, 2015 8:15:31 GMT -5
When mixed with a transport then the veterans increase in value true, but I don't use them. My guys are foot in the extreme, pushing 4000 points and don't have a single tank , the only armour I run is sentinels and one day some rapiers, Cyclops and sabre teams. I love them, I want more but my converted guys are expensive to build. haha The biggest challenge is using terrain to hide them from fire and waiting for that perfect time to launch the attack. I find keeping them in reserve is a good way to keep them safe and then be able to strike where your line is faltering later in the game. Played a game against almost all bike mounted space marines, they smashed my infantry lines and had me on the ropes on turn 2, but when the riders arrived from reserves they completely turned the game around giving me the win. What is the formation, I haven't seen it? Basically you get to take Death Riders as your main units. You get 1-2 HQ, 2-6 FA, 2 Troop, 4 HS, 1 LOW as your FOC chart. Base you need 2 Death Rider Squads as your FA tax and 1 Death Rider Command Squad with Colonel which acts as your HQ choice. Your Death Riders get OBJ Secured and if 2+ death rider units charge the same enemy at the same time they gain fear. It is not super powerful or anything, but is a fluffy way to play an all cav army. Death Riders are a little expensive for their utility, but they look actually useable in a regular game unlike regular RR which are a joke. What makes it even better is for me since I am not a Kreig player I can throw death riders in as a formation that is still fitting fluff wise as my RR are Catachan's riding dinosaurs. Death Riders should really have scout and probably +1 T. Also the ability to take special weapons would be nice.
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Post by Captain Zapp Brannigan on May 2, 2015 5:26:57 GMT -5
When mixed with a transport then the veterans increase in value true, but I don't use them. My guys are foot in the extreme, pushing 4000 points and don't have a single tank , the only armour I run is sentinels and one day some rapiers, Cyclops and sabre teams. I love them, I want more but my converted guys are expensive to build. haha The biggest challenge is using terrain to hide them from fire and waiting for that perfect time to launch the attack. I find keeping them in reserve is a good way to keep them safe and then be able to strike where your line is faltering later in the game. Played a game against almost all bike mounted space marines, they smashed my infantry lines and had me on the ropes on turn 2, but when the riders arrived from reserves they completely turned the game around giving me the win. What is the formation, I haven't seen it? Basically you get to take Death Riders as your main units. You get 1-2 HQ, 2-6 FA, 2 Troop, 4 HS, 1 LOW as your FOC chart. Base you need 2 Death Rider Squads as your FA tax and 1 Death Rider Command Squad with Colonel which acts as your HQ choice. Your Death Riders get OBJ Secured and if 2+ death rider units charge the same enemy at the same time they gain fear. It is not super powerful or anything, but is a fluffy way to play an all cav army. Death Riders are a little expensive for their utility, but they look actually useable in a regular game unlike regular RR which are a joke. What makes it even better is for me since I am not a Kreig player I can throw death riders in as a formation that is still fitting fluff wise as my RR are Catachan's riding dinosaurs. Death Riders should really have scout and probably +1 T. Also the ability to take special weapons would be nice. If RR could take Outflank they would be amaze-balls I like to take mine every now and then when I play 'Nids. My mate is always able to get his FMCs into my fire base earlier so then I just counter charge with a squad of RR once he is chewing away at my combined squads. Otherwise I'll give them two flamers and charge into a gaunt squad of his in order to deny him getting +1 attacks for charging and to tie him up a turn early. RR are quite bad, but then again also very good in a IG list I find. My probable is that we already have quite a few good FA options already.
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