Starting IG, without tanks

[meavar]

Hi,

After a long absence from 40k I want to start an imperial guard army and figured this would be a good place for asking questions.
While I really like the idea of the imperial guard, but I have one minor issue: I hate their tanks.
I can play a bit with some friends who also started out, so there will be less optimization, but also joined a club of veterans, so there I fear some optimization will happen.
So I was wondering would it be viable to play IG without tanks (might use some walkers and maybe a flyer once in a while).
I think I want it based around abhumans (probably some ogryns, ratkin, my elites will all be space dwarves, rough riders will be centaurs etc)
So I might try converting some vehicles at some point as well, but with normal men the changes are more ascetics, with tanks it often makes a larger impact because of true line of sight. Will this cause problems in tournaments, and would it be better to convert for instance orc vehicles/ or maybe even put tau ones on wheels, or could I use more realistic tanks/scratch build something and convert from there?

GW clearly frowns heavily on using other company miniatures, but by using the vehicles from other army's I might create to much confusion, so for now I think I want to try an footslogging IG army.
I know I am handicapping myself a little bit, but is it possible or not really to have a tourney worthy list and not end up completely at the bottom without any tanks?
I played a small game with IG with some space marine allies who did use vehicles. Without the Space marines and their vehicles it seemed I lacked both some fast transport and some long range punch. But this was my first game with the IG and the second with the 7th edition rules (came from a few versions back) so it might be I was just not up to tactics and probably need a bunch more heavy weapons, but to me at least on paper they seem to die so fast if there are not some tanks to distract/destroy all the shooting

Bartjan

[treadiculous]

commissar.proboards.com/thread/18907/commission-gideon-main-battle-tank



if that doesn't tempt you then here's some advantages to all infantry armies:

1) they will make certain expensive weapon choices of your enemies redundant, firing twin linked lascannons at a platoon of guardsmen isn't cost effective.

2) they can cover the battlefield and prevent drop pods or other deepstrikers from landing amidst your ranks

3) they can grab objectives within reach and hold on bitterly as they have optimal numbers for attrition

4) they respond well to orders and with an extra command squad and psyker support can become formidable units

5) they're cheap yet effective, the humble lasgun is surprisingly effective en masse

6) platoons with heavy weapons mean the firepower is likely to survive a long time and can be boosted with decent orders

7) big platoons with lots of heavy weapons mean orders are very efficient, 5 heavy weapons given the order which suits that turns target can be devastating

8) small units amidst the big units means you have flexibility and can send tiny groups of men to seize objectives or harass enemy units

9) they look amazing, the body count will be high regardless of winning or losing so you'll always have a happy opponent

10) this is the guard, footsloggers are the astra militarum, any thing else is just pretending to be a space marine

11) firepower is readily available, once in cover and with good sight lines infantry with big guns can be hard to shift, especially if there's a wall of men in front of them.

12) mortars and masters of ordnance will give your opponents a headache, though you must take a lot if you choose barrage units

13) overwatch, yup, you're going to roll 60 dice when you try to charge your 30 man platoon

14) the 50% cover rule, while potentially cheesy, you can place your squads so they provide each other with cover - even when they're in the open

15) the 'move out the way in movement, move back to cover the firepower by running' tactic is still valid, essentially you have your heavy weapons behind a squad of infantry, in the infantry's move they clear a line of sight for the firepower unit, then in the shooting phase the firepower unit takes its shots, then the infantry unit runs back to cover them again.

16) terrain is your armour, use buildings and barricades to provide cover for your men, they'll appreciate it.

17) don't worry about range, hold the objectives you need and wait for them to come into your closer range where they'll be melted by flashlights

18) don't risk taking an objective that'll get you cut down - it may be prudent to wait for the enemy to advance toward it first, then once they are dead you can move forward

19) kill their tanks where it suits you, if they want to drive the mobile cover toward your line then make sure it dies where you can take advantage of it

20) your weapons are useless: don't give units the ability to kill armour in close combat, that way they can fall back and attack other targets while your firepower can now target it (which they wouldn't be able to do if you are in close combat)



there's probably more but I'm rushing before work!



this may also be relevant:




The tasks I see armies now facing are:

1) Objective Control (Getting to objectives quickly, and then holding them)
2) Anti Infantry
3) Anti Elite
4) Anti Tank / Monstrous Creature
5) Anti Air
6) Anti Psyker
7) Flank Security (Protection from deep strike, infiltrate and outflank)
8) Leadership (Ensuring your men do not run away)



I think it is possible to consider and cover all those factors in a 1000 point list:


Objective Control - Loads of troops; so platoons are good here
Infantry and Elite will both fall to massed lasguns; the platoons cover this already
Anti - Tank / Monstrous Creature will require auto-cannons and lascannons; add these to the platoons (either as HWS or in the squads)
Anti - Air... well, there are a few good choices, the hydra, sabre platform and ageis with quad gun are good deals. Missile Launchers with Flakk missiles also possible
Anti - Psyker; the brotherhood ruling is quite handy and these are fairly cheap to field.
Flank Security; as long as you keep the auto-cannon in the middle they should be able to turn on anything arriving from the flanks, or some flamer squads (either PCS or SWS) to hover round the flanks waiting to wall of death.
Leadership; well, we have a commander with a bunch of orders, or commissar lord for more Ld; seems to cover this role well.

CCS
PCS + 4 Flamer + 2 squads
PCS + 4 Flamer + 2 Squads
HWS + 3 Autocannon
HWS + 3 Autocannon
HWS + 3 Lascannon
HWS + 3 Lascannon
Wychvane Brotherhood
Ageis + Quad

I make this around 800 ish

[meavar]

Wow nice post and it does clear up some things.

I see you put a lot of Heavy Weapon Squads in the quick list probably this was part of my mistake and is something I will have to ad more of them.

The link you posted did show a model from a different company, is this us usually accepted in tournaments if it is just a few vehicle models like that?
Thanks for the advise.

[treadiculous]

I wouldn't think it would get accepted but it is a nice model for casual games!

[nutty]

You might be allowed to use it in tournaments held at independant stores. Those held at GW-stores or the big/famous tournaments will probably not allow it. But the rulespack should specify if you can use 3rd party miniatures or not.

All infantry lists can certainly work, and are a lot of fun. But there will be some match-ups that will be difficult to win, and scoring maelstrom objectives can be tricky without fast moving units/troops.



Try a few games with tread's advice in mind: you can always decide to add non-infantry units later on.

[meavar]

OK,

I played a game against orks, and it wnet pretty ok (it was a draw).

And I started building a list to work to.

Right now I am thinking of starting with this, but I am unsure if it has to few anty tank weapons and to much flamers (which rule against orks).

Company command squad 101
camo cloaks for the vets (do I pay 6 points for this, 2*2 for the normal vets and 2 for the waepon team since they count is one model? or do I still pay 8)
2 snipers and an autocannon and a master of ordnance

Infantry platoon 243
platoon command with 2 flamers
2 infantry squads both with a flamer
heavy weapon squad with autocannons

veteran squad 91
3 meltaguns (will this possibly work without a transport?)

rough rider squad 65 (I know they are not that good, but I like the idea of making centaur abhumans for them)
2 flamers

[meavar]

The idea is that the CCS and the HWS stay back while the rest moves a bit forward to capture objectives and flame anyone who comes to close

[treadiculous]

you can make a lot of heavy weapons squads out of a box of 3 heavy weapon teams, use the crouching legs and tripod to make a auto-cannon / lascannon (the guns can be swapped over as you like since they are the same size), the missile launcher can go on a standing infantry man from a normal squad and use the other set of crouching legs to make a mortar.

currently i see a lot of kit on not a lot of men, consider dropping the sniper rifles and cloaks at a later stage.

I'd also look at other kit for the veterans, possibly keep them bare bones as they will become less of a target priority that way and enable you to sneak them onto objectives - melta guns a re a scary threat and easy to avoid due to short range. if you can get them a fast transport (valkyrie) then they become very valuable otherwise they can just get blown away too easily.

that said, at small points you may find they work well for you.

[nutty]

If you are converting roughriders; maybe you can give them meltaguns instead of flamers so that you have atleast one fast moving melta unit? That might compensate for the lack of transport vehicles in the list.

[The Hawk!]

Right.. I am by no means in the loop with current guard tactics, but, here's my input buddy;

Melta Vets against Orks... not such a brilliant option compared to others.. In my experience, the use of 3 flamers, or 2 flamers and a heavy flamer would be much more effective. Orks hate Templates. T shirt saves don't usually save them, and with flamers ignoring cover, you will cook most of the Orks.

An alternate load out that might be worth looking at, would be one of my favourites. 3 grenade launchers, an Autocannon and Camo cloaks.. dig them in cover on your objective, and watch tqhem do damage to light vehicles and anything below a 3+ armour save alike.

As said by Nutty, consider the Meltas on the cav, a nice, fast AT unit is always nice. Just remember that you are squishy as hell, and most players who know what Melta does, will try to blast you with whatever they can muster so you can't trash there precious tanks.

Now, Guard have the ability to cram so much heavy weaponry it can be unreal.. But, from my point of view, without any use of vehicles, you are in for one hell of a challenge mate. If not tanks, consider some of the mobile artillery pieces, as I do believe you're going to need fire support in some form or another..

Also... watch out for those flyers... They can be nasty without units with skyfire, and to my knowledge, only the Hydra Flak Tank has that, but, it's limited in use as it can only fire at flyers.

Best of luck to you mate.

[Rolling Thunder]

Veterans and flamers is a major faux pas. If you need flamers; SWS from the platoon or just bring them in your infantry squads.

[The Hawk!]

If I'd exclusively said, 'only put 3 flamers' in veterans, I would agree with you RT, but, in my experience, the heavy flamer pulls its weight. Also, Veterans are the only infantry to my knowledge that can pack one. That extra strength and ability to negate 'Eavy armour' is also a blessing, and on average, its going to roast more Orks than an Autocannon will. Though I would strongly reccomend APC's if taking this approach to eradication of the Orks, as his shooting phase will hurt.If you don't want Chimera, take RT's approach, max platoons out with fire, and send in wave after wave of fire until you're left with smouldering puddles of green gloop

[RedsandRoyals]

A heavy flamer and two meltas isn't bad either. Normally it's a sin to mix special weapons, but I've seen that particular build be very effective.

[Rolling Thunder]

I'd recommend using twin flamer chimeras and melta veterans

[The Hawk!]

Dec 8, 2016 23:23:11 GMT -5 RedsandRoyals said:

A heavy flamer and two meltas isn't bad either. Normally it's a sin to mix special weapons, but I've seen that particular build be very effective.

Tried, tested.. Broke an ultramarine players balls

I can see the wisdom in that RT. Thing is, Meaver said no tanks, and I'm unsure if they class Chimeras as tanks? I dunno. Thing I'm noticing with 7th ed, is that there is armour.. Armour every fornicateing where. In 750 points, I'm facing 2 Battlewagons. Ive seen guard lists that quite frankly fighten me more than they inspire.. I'm living in the glory days of 5th, when AV 14 wasn't common sight in games under 1000 points. This whole 2 editions infront and tanks everywhere is a reality check. I mean bloody hell.. your 750 point list has 3 bloody gunships in it!!!!

All in all Meaver. If you want a human tsunami to wash over your opponent, get it done! I imagine that army would be a hell of a lot of fun to play! If you want to play competitive level.. I'd say you're going to need armour buddy. :/

[treadiculous]

negative, your armour is contempt!

keep to the feet man, ground pounding footsloggers all the way!