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Post by RedsandRoyals on Apr 7, 2017 23:16:37 GMT -5
There is no good reason in universe, that the process to make a Space Marine couldn't work on women In universe? Yes, there is. The zygotes don't work with women. Given we are talking about a pseudo-mystical medical procedure and implants that can transform (in the case of the Blood Angels, for instance) emaciated teen-age boys riddled with cancer and other physical defects due to the harsh conditions of Baal into extremely faaaabulous eight foot tall superhuman warriors, trying to apply real world medical and biological knowledge is a bit... misplaced. The implantation process, like so much advanced stuff in 40k, more religious ritual than medical operation, to the point where there's little understanding of why it works, only that it does. So, if we're talking "true" space marines, you'd be out of luck in the current setting. There are ways around all that, though, such a process that can impart roughly the same capabilities onto a subject regardless of sex. They may not have the exact host of implants, nor be internally "constructed" the same way, but if you stuff them in power armor the difference would be negligible to whoever facing them. Several attempts to create "off-brand" space marines are either described or alluded to in the fluff, the most infamous being Honsou's Daemonculaba. Most of these methods involve either the powers of Chaos, or genetic knowledge waaaay outside what the Mechanicus would consider acceptable, or both. As Paimon noted, the end result will probably look more like current Marines anyway. Or something less human altogether. The other option, of course, being what Dizzy originally suggested, which was that the process gets refined or improved to the point where it can happen, or they use some other way of creating Space Marines Mk. II that works on both men and women.* *On a side note, this is another reason why I prefer the 40k RPGs. The GM can patch up some of the more egregious grim-derp, and maybe bend things here and there based on what the group wants to do. Ask Mel about her catgirl techpriestess.
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Post by andres on Apr 8, 2017 7:19:00 GMT -5
Perhaps I did not get my point accross. What attracts me to 40k (I suspect other people as well) is the lack of political correctness (or even simple common decency) in the setting that in itself reflects a different mindset in its design. I would not like that to go away. I would not like it to move with the times, I would like it to stay exactly like it is, the idea that some designer looks at it and decides to make it more diverce or inclusive to attract a more diverse audience or become more acceptable subtracts something from its weird charm. Again I get that different people get different things from the hobby and probably I am the minority, nevertheless it should be taken into consideration that some people like the idea that 40k is subtly sexist, racist or authoritirian. I try to be honest knowing that this point I am making is probably repugnant to most, because I think that there must be many people thinking in the same vein.
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Post by kirsten on Apr 8, 2017 9:58:18 GMT -5
repugnant is certainly the word
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Post by cheminhaler on Apr 8, 2017 14:19:57 GMT -5
One of my favourite short stories was in the Space Marine Battles series and it was about a human ex guardsman who ended up captured by the Tau and forcefully inducted into the Tau auxilia. It was an interesting story; he hated the Imperium for what it was although he didn't trust the Tau either but towards the end he was a fanatical follower of the Greater Good philosophy. The Tau even gave him voice-box surgery like they do only for their most trusted human followers, so that he could properly pronounce the Tau alphabet. Need to remember which book that was from but it was part of a few SMM battle books concerning the Damocles Gulf crusade. Also just for anyone wanting female SM models there are these models from Prodos games. Prepare yourself for the horrible 18+ version of Space Crusade with a very politically incorrect theme.: Space Crusade
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Post by treadiculous on Apr 9, 2017 21:01:17 GMT -5
Perhaps I did not get my point accross. What attracts me to 40k (I suspect other people as well) is the lack of political correctness (or even simple common decency) in the setting that in itself reflects a different mindset in its design. I would not like that to go away. I would not like it to move with the times, I would like it to stay exactly like it is, the idea that some designer looks at it and decides to make it more diverce or inclusive to attract a more diverse audience or become more acceptable subtracts something from its weird charm. Again I get that different people get different things from the hobby and probably I am the minority, nevertheless it should be taken into consideration that some people like the idea that 40k is subtly sexist, racist or authoritirian. I try to be honest knowing that this point I am making is probably repugnant to most, because I think that there must be many people thinking in the same vein. I think i get what you are saying and feel similar; the humans of the 41st millenia are bigoted despots, cruel rulers, callous and disregarding of the life of a single citzen, caring (possibly) more for the future of humanity (though possibly their personal gain) they pursue their goals with religious fevour and a reliance on ignorant traditions (of which, one of the primary traditions is to maintain their ignorance!). while I would like to see females denoted positively in all mediums, forcing 40k to be politically correct would remove all the atmospheric mood setting the faith in the emporer is connected to and make the lanscape bland and subject to further whims of the current day society. I like the fact the humans are bad guys too; in fact I think 40k's appeal to me is that there are no good guys! the 40k universe is huge, and it's easy enough to think of reasons why a particular army may be 'female space marines', just maybe let the fluff be and add to it, rather than change it. chemin - now i have seen this i will want it forever: shop.prodosgames.com/alien-vs-predator/261-alien-versus-predator-dropship.html
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Post by The Hawk! on Apr 10, 2017 1:40:55 GMT -5
Good lord! Hide them from Trooper!!!!
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Post by ElegaicRequiem on Apr 10, 2017 9:08:30 GMT -5
Ask Mel about her catgirl techpriestess. That was good times. I also have a "sort of" female space marine character NPC in an RP as a prototype of sorts for a new type of human, not necessarily as a living weapon mutant, which is what marines are. And she is visibly different from human standard, so she has to disguise certain features to avoid persecution on more orthodox planets.
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Post by andres on Apr 11, 2017 6:22:07 GMT -5
Perhaps I did not get my point accross. What attracts me to 40k (I suspect other people as well) is the lack of political correctness (or even simple common decency) in the setting that in itself reflects a different mindset in its design. I would not like that to go away. I would not like it to move with the times, I would like it to stay exactly like it is, the idea that some designer looks at it and decides to make it more diverce or inclusive to attract a more diverse audience or become more acceptable subtracts something from its weird charm. Again I get that different people get different things from the hobby and probably I am the minority, nevertheless it should be taken into consideration that some people like the idea that 40k is subtly sexist, racist or authoritirian. I try to be honest knowing that this point I am making is probably repugnant to most, because I think that there must be many people thinking in the same vein. I think i get what you are saying and feel similar; the humans of the 41st millenia are bigoted despots, cruel rulers, callous and disregarding of the life of a single citzen, caring (possibly) more for the future of humanity (though possibly their personal gain) they pursue their goals with religious fevour and a reliance on ignorant traditions (of which, one of the primary traditions is to maintain their ignorance!). while I would like to see females denoted positively in all mediums, forcing 40k to be politically correct would remove all the atmospheric mood setting the faith in the emporer is connected to and make the lanscape bland and subject to further whims of the current day society. I like the fact the humans are bad guys too; in fact I think 40k's appeal to me is that there are no good guys! the 40k universe is huge, and it's easy enough to think of reasons why a particular army may be 'female space marines', just maybe let the fluff be and add to it, rather than change it. chemin - now i have seen this i will want it forever: shop.prodosgames.com/alien-vs-predator/261-alien-versus-predator-dropship.htmlWell you expressed my idea better than I could have done expressed it. Thank you.
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Post by treadiculous on Apr 12, 2017 16:58:35 GMT -5
Well you expressed my idea better than I could have done expressed it. Thank you. it's nice to hear that I am not alone in thinking that for others who observe the lore of 40k from the outside it may seem hard to understand why I like it. I imagine numerous battlegames in which any player is building an army of bad guys can be hard for outsiders to understand. I wouldn't enjoy explaining why I like driving Tiger and Panther tanks in WorldofTanks and still find it confusing on some personal levels, there is violence in my wargames, this is what sets them apart from other games and potentially why I choose to play them, yet I am able to live a life in which non-violent communication is my view on how conflict should be resolved. Therefore is playing simulated-violence games intrinsically bad - I don't think so. If you ever encounter someone who feels that it is a problem, ask them what films they like; there will be few films that don't involve a bad guy to create tension and drama. That bad guy / monster / plot device had to be created by someone. In the meantime, I'm loving the Toughest Girls in the Galaxy - Jail Birds of which I now own 20 - and have assembled a mostly female eldar corsair army so thats my contribution to bad ass female representation. My 2 favourite films are Aliens (hence the catachan) and Mad Max Fury Road (hence the Orks), and because girls with brains kick ass. righty, time to play some Wargame Red Dragon me-thinks!
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Post by Rolling Thunder on Apr 12, 2017 17:42:37 GMT -5
Also, from a biological perspective, likely the same reason you don't have female infantry in modern armies; you can't recruit a sufficient density of women capable of passing the physical to make it worth the investment of resources in creating an all-female formation. Same reason they don't allow boys into the Battle Sisters. Thankfully, in 40K, we have the Guard, where we have reverted to WW2 tactics and equipment, only with a basic small arm with near-perfect accuracy, minimal ammunition requirements and extraordinary reliability.
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Post by RedsandRoyals on Apr 12, 2017 18:58:44 GMT -5
righty, time to play some Wargame Red Dragon me-thinks! You need to play the beta for Steel Division, mate. Wargame in WWII! I don't really understand how, in-universe, female marines would somehow be a move toward "positive depictions" and 'political correctness". Space Marines run the gamut from selfless heroes to genocidal maniacs, to arrogant little sh*ts. Somewhat ironically given their indoctrination, they embody and amplify the virtues and failings of humanity as warriors. I see no reason why female marines wouldn't be represented across that same spectrum of heroes and villains. Besides, at the end of Gathering Storm III: Return of the Jedi Primarch, the Imperium is pretty much wrecked, so I can see it being all hands on deck trying to fix things, rather than "Oh we should have some women to be inclusive, because Welcome to the Imperium of Hugs" or whatever. Now, I do understand why people would not like it from a GW business decision standpoint, since on a certain level it would feel like a calculated decision to expand the market base and, as others have said, draw in a wider audience. I also absolutely get people being tired of marine saturation. ...likely the same reason you don't have female infantry in modern armies... I assume you mean as all-female formations? Because if we're talking about mixed-sex infantry that's a thing currently, albeit relatively rare. Also Battle Sisters are all female because after the Age of Apostasy the Ecclesiarchy was told they could no longer "have men under arms". The Ecclesiarchy went "Lol, okay" and founded the Adepta Sororitas, presumably while making this face. Anyway, as a purely academic thought exercise, it would be sort of interesting to see how various chapters reacted if female recruits were suddenly an option. Some would almost certainly go "Uh, no thanks", while others (probably the Ultramarines, given the emphasis on merit in Ultramar culture) would welcome them.
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Post by kirsten on Apr 13, 2017 3:11:27 GMT -5
it is a made up sci fi setting with genetic engineering and space wizards. yes you can have female space marines. there is no other discussion.
Having female space marines is about better representation for gamers, it would have zero impact on the fluff, nor would it detract from the setting. Having women in the astartes would just be about having more bodies to throw at the many enemies of mankind, it wouldn't make the setting more politically correct, detract from the grimdark, or anything else.
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Post by The Hawk! on Apr 13, 2017 3:51:15 GMT -5
it is a made up sci fi setting with genetic engineering and space wizards. yes you can have female space marines. there is no other discussion. Having female space marines is about better representation for gamers, it would have zero impact on the fluff, nor would it detract from the setting. Having women in the astartes would just be about having more bodies to throw at the many enemies of mankind, it wouldn't make the setting more politically correct, detract from the grimdark, or anything else. 'I think some of the Old neckbeards are just finding it hard to let go of 80s 40k stereotypes'- Said every feminist 40k player ever... ^ Very risky joke I may regret later... But, I digress into seriousness now (for the most part). I do agree in some aspects with Kirsten, most really. Female Marines are just more bullet magnets for the line. And with Magnus turning up, and the probability of at least one of the missing loyalist Primarchs returning, with there knowledge of the Emporers technologies, it is theoretically possible that the gene seed programme could be adapted to facilitate female candidates. However (not so serious bit) when I envision this, because Space Marines are referred to as 'Brothers' and the Nuns with Guns as 'Sisters', all I could see is Boo from Orange is the new Black, walking around, ball tapping all the Ultramarines, laughing and calling them pussies. And Alan Carr strutting around the battlefield saying 'You go Sister!' whenever something is killed... So by default, GW have single handedly made my views (theoretical as they are) more stereotypical than before... .. But it's still not as bad as Matt Ward...
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Post by treadiculous on Apr 13, 2017 5:44:07 GMT -5
You need to play the beta for Steel Division, mate. Wargame in WWII! ooooh... this looks good!
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Post by Rolling Thunder on Apr 14, 2017 4:56:43 GMT -5
it is a made up sci fi setting with genetic engineering and space wizards. yes you can have female space marines. there is no other discussion. There clearly is; we've strung it out to two pages now. 'I think some of the Old neckbeards are just finding it hard to let go of 80s 40k stereotypes'- Said every feminist 40k player ever... ^ Very risky joke I may regret later... But, I digress into seriousness now (for the most part). I do agree in some aspects with Kirsten, most really. Female Marines are just more bullet magnets for the line. And with Magnus turning up, and the probability of at least one of the missing loyalist Primarchs returning, with there knowledge of the Emporers technologies, it is theoretically possible that the gene seed programme could be adapted to facilitate female candidates. However (not so serious bit) when I envision this, because Space Marines are referred to as 'Brothers' and the Nuns with Guns as 'Sisters', all I could see is Boo from Orange is the new Black, walking around, ball tapping all the Ultramarines, laughing and calling them pussies. And Alan Carr strutting around the battlefield saying 'You go Sister!' whenever something is killed... So by default, GW have single handedly made my views (theoretical as they are) more stereotypical than before... .. But it's still not as bad as Matt Ward... This post makes me want to peel your skin off, and summon a daemon into your flesh, just to I can watch it consume your soul, bit by bit. Or possibly send you back to Salvar.
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Post by The Hawk! on Apr 14, 2017 9:21:54 GMT -5
it is a made up sci fi setting with genetic engineering and space wizards. yes you can have female space marines. there is no other discussion. There clearly is; we've strung it out to two pages now. 'I think some of the Old neckbeards are just finding it hard to let go of 80s 40k stereotypes'- Said every feminist 40k player ever... ^ Very risky joke I may regret later... But, I digress into seriousness now (for the most part). I do agree in some aspects with Kirsten, most really. Female Marines are just more bullet magnets for the line. And with Magnus turning up, and the probability of at least one of the missing loyalist Primarchs returning, with there knowledge of the Emporers technologies, it is theoretically possible that the gene seed programme could be adapted to facilitate female candidates. However (not so serious bit) when I envision this, because Space Marines are referred to as 'Brothers' and the Nuns with Guns as 'Sisters', all I could see is Boo from Orange is the new Black, walking around, ball tapping all the Ultramarines, laughing and calling them pussies. And Alan Carr strutting around the battlefield saying 'You go Sister!' whenever something is killed... So by default, GW have single handedly made my views (theoretical as they are) more stereotypical than before... .. But it's still not as bad as Matt Ward... This post makes me want to peel your skin off, and summon a daemon into your flesh, just to I can watch it consume your soul, bit by bit. Or possibly send you back to Salvar. Hey... I said it wasn't as bad as Matt Ward, cut me some slack big lad
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Post by cheminhaler on Apr 14, 2017 10:37:03 GMT -5
There clearly is; we've strung it out to two pages now. Although to be fair quite a lot of it has been an off topic rant on who likes authoritarianism or who hates David Bowie's 80s hairstyle.
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Post by Rolling Thunder on Apr 15, 2017 5:21:43 GMT -5
Also, the Space Marines simply don't need "more bodies for the line"; they're a hyperelite force of shock troops, a la the Spetznaz/RMC; they take the best (of their respective home worlds) and then render them transhuman super-soldiers. The Guard taking in female recruits kind of makes sense, though I'd point out female/male mixed combat formations have proven to have mixed effectiveness, even with as doublehard an army as the IDF. Bodies for the line is a Guard thing, though, given the mostly pre-1967 nature of IG influences.
[thought exercise]
As a thought experiment, let us put aside the whole "gene seeds only work on men". Let's assume that we can do the sensory upgrades, acid glands, not needing sleep, et al, to a Space Marine. I mean, the brain and central nervous system alterations alone could make the process incompatible with females, but we can put that aside.
Let's talk strength and toughness. Females have lower bone density, significantly lower muscle density, and higher body fat %'s, than men, as an overall. Humans are a significantly sexually dimorphic species. The transformation massively enhances the candidates muscles, bone structure, to the point they wind up being a foot/foot and a half taller, double armour ribcage, etc, etc - S4, T4.
If you're working from a baseline that only 60%/70% of normal capability, and doubling it, you're still only winding up at 120-140% of average male strength. Or; congratulations, you spent a fortune to create what Catachan produces naturally.
[/thought exercise]
My personal opinion remains; plastic Sisters. Sisters don't require a rework to existing canon, they're one of the most Gothic elements of the setting, and they're way cooler than Space Marines. Failing that, female Guard.
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Post by cheminhaler on Apr 19, 2017 7:29:44 GMT -5
On the other hand females are stronger at the age of 10-14, then after that boys tend to grow more. Just saying because they would be recruited at that tender young age, so it would make little difference to begin with as long as stronger candidates were chosen from the start.
If you've been selected then you already have to be in top physical condition. Trials just to be selected are dangerous and tend to weed out the weaker candidates.
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Post by Rolling Thunder on Apr 19, 2017 15:04:13 GMT -5
On the other hand females are stronger at the age of 10-14, then after that boys tend to grow more. Just saying because they would be recruited at that tender young age, so it would make little difference to begin with as long as stronger candidates were chosen from the start. If you've been selected then you already have to be in top physical condition. Trials just to be selected are dangerous and tend to weed out the weaker candidates. Early onset of puberty does not stronger overall fighter make. Quite the opposite, actually - accelerated, rapid developmental cycles tend to stunt mental and physical growth.
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Post by emptyhat on Apr 19, 2017 15:42:56 GMT -5
This getting into badly phrased territory.
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Post by RedsandRoyals on Apr 19, 2017 15:54:47 GMT -5
On the other hand females are stronger at the age of 10-14, then after that boys tend to grow more. Just saying because they would be recruited at that tender young age, so it would make little difference to begin with as long as stronger candidates were chosen from the start. If you've been selected then you already have to be in top physical condition. Trials just to be selected are dangerous and tend to weed out the weaker candidates. Early onset of puberty does not stronger overall fighter make. Quite the opposite, actually - accelerated, rapid developmental cycles tend to stunt mental and physical growth. Yes, when it's anomalous. Chem's talking about is the regular puberty "schedule" so to speak. It's also likely that the radical surgeries and manipulations of the human physiology that occur during the process of becoming a space marine would sidetsep biological issues (again, see the Blood Angels and what they have to work with). Chem also brings up a good point. Each chapter has it's own trials and initiation rights. They take different forms, but if you pass, you're in. Some chapters may go 'Okay you three were best everyone else can suck it", but others take whomever survives. Given the conditions on some of the planets Marines recruit from (Baal, Fenris, etc), it's not hard to imagine female aspirants succeeding at the trials. Stength, by itself, is also a pretty bad indicator of what makes a good recruit. The trials are usually focused around survival as much of feat of arms. That means intelligence, will to endure and persevere, and (depending on if the aspirants work together, as is sometimes indicated), teamwork. It's not about who's the strongest, it's about who has the traits the chapter is looking for.
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Post by Rolling Thunder on Apr 19, 2017 17:01:04 GMT -5
That does leave some interesting questions, since the recruitment seems to begin at 10. How are they determining the best fighters? They're ten.
*sigh*
*gives up trying to make sense of 40K writing*
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Post by cheminhaler on Apr 20, 2017 10:08:16 GMT -5
Ten year olds from a feral/ feudal / death world are a lot tougher and grow up quicker, in theory.
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Post by Melissia on Apr 23, 2017 18:51:23 GMT -5
With all due respect (and God knows I like this forum) female space marines could possibly be the only move by GW that would actually make me quit the hobby. It has nothing to do with the fluff, indeed retcons happen. I always thought nevertheless that 40k was the only relatively large franchise that would not try to make itself politically correct and open Oh look another person using literally NOTHING but his own political views as justification for opposing female space marines while pretending the only reason other people like it is their politics how fornicating boring. I'd rather you keep your politics out of my 40k, thanks. FFS I don't even care about Female Space Marines and wouldn't care if they're never released, I just hate the arguments. I prefer Sisters and Guard, ordinary humans doing extraordinary things.
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