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Post by Major Downer on Jul 31, 2017 4:39:07 GMT -5
Hello All,
I'm just getting into writing up army lists and I require some clarification. I'll aplogize now for being slow.
HQ choice:
Before I'd take a Company command squad of 5 Guys but now it's been split up.
Does this mean I can just take a Company commander on his own which counts as HQ choice?
Does this also mean I coule just take a Lord Commissar on his own for HQ choice?
Troops Choice:
Do Vets still count as a single Troop choice?
Do you still need to take a Platoon Command squad with Infatntry? I saw another list and they didn't take one, which confused the life out of me.
I may just post my two army list so you can point me in the correct direction.
Thanks
Major Downer
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Post by nutty on Jul 31, 2017 7:24:31 GMT -5
A commander on his own is an HQ choice, you can take one command squad per Commander (from the FAQ). A lord commissar is a valid HQ as well.
Veterans are, for some reason, an elite choice whilst Scions are now taken as troops. You will need a Prime to order your scions around though, as they no longer listen to other officers
You don't need a platoon commander in order to take infantry/conscript squads as far as I know. The whole platoon system got taken out of the equation.
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Post by Major Downer on Jul 31, 2017 7:42:22 GMT -5
A commander on his own is an HQ choice, you can take one command squad per Commander (from the FAQ). A lord commissar is a valid HQ as well. Veterans are, for some reason, an elite choice whilst Scions are now taken as troops. You will need a Prime to order your scions around though, as they no longer listen to other officers You don't need a platoon commander in order to take infantry/conscript squads as far as I know. The whole platoon system got taken out of the equation. Ok that's great news! I only need to make small changes to the list and should be good to go. Thank you very much for your answer.
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Post by cheminhaler on Jul 31, 2017 8:09:48 GMT -5
With the Battalion its easy to get a platoon IG army ; 3 hqs minimum for the 2 PCS and the CCS, 6 troops choices for the Infantry squads, or you can lose the expensive HQs and only take Platoon commanders bare bones with no command squad.
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Post by Major Downer on Jul 31, 2017 10:02:02 GMT -5
With the Battalion its easy to get a platoon IG army ; 3 hqs minimum for the 2 PCS and the CCS, 6 troops choices for the Infantry squads, or you can lose the expensive HQs and only take Platoon commanders bare bones with no command squad. Yea, this is the approch I will take with my list, as I'll be on foot defending with Lascannons and M/L, this means more points for Heavy weapons. Thank you Chem.
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Post by nutty on Jul 31, 2017 11:02:09 GMT -5
With the Battalion its easy to get a platoon IG army ; 3 hqs minimum for the 2 PCS and the CCS, 6 troops choices for the Infantry squads, or you can lose the expensive HQs and only take Platoon commanders bare bones with no command squad. I don't have my books handy but aren't platoon commanders Elite choices? I've been using 2 Company Commanders and a prime in my lists so far.
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Post by Major Downer on Jul 31, 2017 12:10:55 GMT -5
With the Battalion its easy to get a platoon IG army ; 3 hqs minimum for the 2 PCS and the CCS, 6 troops choices for the Infantry squads, or you can lose the expensive HQs and only take Platoon commanders bare bones with no command squad. I don't have my books handy but aren't platoon commanders Elite choices? I've been using 2 Company Commanders and a prime in my lists so far. DAMN that's right Nutty, Platoon Commander is an Elite choice.
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Post by cheminhaler on Aug 1, 2017 4:19:19 GMT -5
That's annoying. I suppose techpriests or sanctioned psykers would be other ways to fill your slots but the company commander is quite cheap bare bones; you could make 2 more majors or colonels and give them bolters or something cheap.
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Post by Major Downer on Aug 2, 2017 12:29:40 GMT -5
A new Question:
Example: I purchase a HellHound into the list, the HB is free as standard but do I have to had the cost of the Inferno Cannon onto the tank or is this free also?
Knight commander Pask: do I have to pay his points, then add the LRBT points on top and Punisher cannon points? Then if I want HB sponsons I add them in too?
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Post by RedsandRoyals on Aug 2, 2017 13:32:24 GMT -5
While I've not actually spent any real time studying the Imperium 2 Index, as a general rule you have to pay for both the inferno cannon AND that heavy bolter. You have to pay for any and all weapon options. The only exception I can think of off the top of my head are Imperial Assassins, where the wargear is included in the cost of the model. I think Lords of War have this too per the FAQs, but I don't remember with any certainty.
As to the second question, yes. Pay for the hull weapon, pay for the cannon, pay for Pask, pay for the sponsons. Many vehicles in this edition are much more expensive, partially because of this. The trade off is they're more durable and act like monstrous creatures.
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Post by Major Downer on Aug 3, 2017 2:13:47 GMT -5
While I've not actually spent any real time studying the Imperium 2 Index, as a general rule you have to pay for both the inferno cannon AND that heavy bolter. You have to pay for any and all weapon options. The only exception I can think of off the top of my head are Imperial Assassins, where the wargear is included in the cost of the model. I think Lords of War have this too per the FAQs, but I don't remember with any certainty. As to the second question, yes. Pay for the hull weapon, pay for the cannon, pay for Pask, pay for the sponsons. Many vehicles in this edition are much more expensive, partially because of this. The trade off is they're more durable and act like monstrous creatures. I'm sorry if that was a thick one but my brain interperated in 2 ways so I wasn't sure, Thanks Reds for your clarification.
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Post by RedsandRoyals on Aug 3, 2017 7:40:59 GMT -5
No problem! Remember, it's like buying a new car. The chassis is the base cost, but everything else costs extra.
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Post by nutty on Aug 4, 2017 12:22:30 GMT -5
This is how it was explained to me, but please correct me if I'm wrong:
Tank Commanders (and Pask) are essentially battle tanks (battle cannon & HB) with a better BS. If you want to upgrade the battlecannon to say a punisher cannon: you deduct the points that the battlecannon costs (say 25) from the cost of the punisher cannon (say 30) paying 5 points for the upgrade. The same for the hull weapon. Sponsons have nothing to "trade in" so they are taken at the cost indicated.
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The opponent I faced yesterday pulled the following trick in every single charge/assault he made:
After overwatch & charge distance got resolved he would move his models towards mine, but intentionally leave ~half an inch of distance between our models. Then he would use his consolidation move to move his models 3" past/over (jump packs) my guys towards my tanks. He claimed that this was allowed since he ended his move closer to the nearest model, and that for a charge to be succcesful his models only had to end up within an inch of mine. Then when his terminators/vanguard tore through the infantry squad they charged, they consolidated into the tanks/artillery behind them: locking them in combat and making them unable to shoot for a turn.
To me this sounds like a pretty farfetched interpretation of the rules... but I could not find any rules that say it isn't allowed. Is this really how charges/assaults are supposed to work in 8th? Or did I get bamboozled?
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Post by RedsandRoyals on Aug 4, 2017 14:16:20 GMT -5
I want to make sure I'm reading this properly.
- He declares a charge with a jump pack unit.
- He moves 1/2in away from you after overwatch. This concludes the charge phase for this unit.
- In the fight phase, he uses his pile in move to jump OVER your units and end up behind them, close to your tanks.
- Lots of punching, chopping, and slap fighting ensues.
- He uses his consolidate move to lock your tanks in combat once he's mulched your infantry.
If this is correct, then he is possibly a cheating d*ckhole. The pile in move dictates you must move toward the closest enemy MODEL, not unit. If his vanguard veterans were in front of your infantry squad, the closest models would be the front rank of that squad. Therefore he must move toward that front rank. He can't circle around and engage your back rank, because they're not the closest model.
Now, here's the caveat; are you deploying your squad in a single line? If so, then this is legal. He can jump your thin line, get into base to base behind you, and qualify as still be closer to the model than when he started. The solution is pretty obvious though, put a rank of guys behind the first rank. A model's base is an inch wide, so if you double up on ranks, he literally cannot get closer to the nearest model by moving behind you. Don't squeeze your ranks together if you can help it. Leave a half inch or so between the the fist and second. That will make it almost impossible for him to do this.
Remember, positioning is super important in 8th.
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Post by nutty on Aug 5, 2017 4:30:05 GMT -5
I deployed my guys in a staggered line with roughly an inch in between.
So something like this:
[1]
A--B--C--D--E -F--G--H--I--J _______@______
His argument was that since he ended his charge within half an inch of model 'H' (and 'H' being the closest model) he can use his 3" consolidation to move model '@' in between my models C & D as long as he ends that move closer to 'H' than he started it. After the guardsmen got killed he could then consolidate model '@' 3" towards my tank [1].
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Post by RedsandRoyals on Aug 5, 2017 8:50:10 GMT -5
In that case, he's correct, as long as he maintains coherency with his own unit.
You can post the question on the GW facebook page if you want, they may FAQ it.
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Post by nutty on Aug 5, 2017 20:20:13 GMT -5
Well cr*p.. that makes infantry screens next to useless. Unless I start spamming hordes of Conscripts everybody and their cousin is going to get in my tanks turn 2 and keep them from firing.
Might have to carry on with that test-Crusader squad I started last week.
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Post by RedsandRoyals on Aug 5, 2017 21:23:33 GMT -5
Or keep them close enough together where he can't insert them between the two ranks.
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Post by nutty on Aug 5, 2017 22:22:07 GMT -5
Or keep them close enough together where he can't insert them between the two ranks. True, that'll still take ~2 squads per tank though.. unless I want to put my tanks at risk of being multi-charged. I'll work something out, besides if I face another guy that spends 15 minutes optimizing the distance his charging models are placed from mine I'll probably just pack up and go home anyway.
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Post by treadiculous on Aug 5, 2017 22:24:39 GMT -5
the tactic does require:
1) having units with jump packs
2) successfully surviving the charge / overwatch phase
3) having enough space to land in behind the screening unit
4) killing all the screening unit in order to consolidate into the other unit (tank).
5) a unit within consolidation range of the rear rank of the screening unit
I'm intrigued that a unit need not be in base contact at the end of a charge - I haven't picked up 8th ed yet.
I guess this tactic might be good to avoid a character or strong close combat figure (eg sergeant) that was in the first rank of a unit?
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Post by nutty on Aug 5, 2017 23:16:48 GMT -5
the tactic does require: 1) having units with jump packs 2) successfully surviving the charge / overwatch phase 3) having enough space to land in behind the screening unit 4) killing all the screening unit in order to consolidate into the other unit (tank). 5) a unit within consolidation range of the rear rank of the screening unit I'm intrigued that a unit need not be in base contact at the end of a charge - I haven't picked up 8th ed yet. I guess this tactic might be good to avoid a character or strong close combat figure (eg sergeant) that was in the first rank of a unit? 1) jump packs allow you move over a unit, but if there is more than an inch between the bases you would be able to ram: regular infantry, bikes, cavalry, through there just as easily. 2) it's pretty rare to kill a whole unit in overwatch. And if your opponent charges from over 8" away you can't use the flamer. 3) if there is no space to land behind the screen.. they can probably consolidate right into the tanks to begin with. 4) everything that isn't into b2b can consolidate, so even killing a handfull of infantrymen can be enough to allow an enemy to end their consolidation move within 1" of a tank. 5) the screen has to be pretty close, otherwise jumppack or deepstriking infantry can deploy in between the screen and the tank. I'm not saying it's impossible to screen a tank (well I kind of did, but that was for dramatic effect) but it got a lot harder: leave more than 3" and a deepstriking unit can land within your screen and the tank (no more scatter) stand within 3" and a charger can consolidate into it. Mainly I'm just a little ticked off that I brought 5 tanks/artillery units to a battle and got to shoot 3 times over 5 turns because terminators and assault marines kept consolidating into them. I just feel it would be a lot more balanced if units where forced to take the shortest route to consolidate towards the nearest model. You'd still be able to consolidate into other combats, but it'd be a bit less common.
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Post by Major Downer on Oct 20, 2017 5:56:25 GMT -5
Stupid Question coming up.
If the Melta gun is S:8 AP-4 My sister fires at my Guards man and wounds, that would be an instant kill? Guardsman is 5+ save -4 AP means no matter what I roll he's dead.
Can someone clarify this for a simple person such as myself?
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Post by RedsandRoyals on Oct 20, 2017 11:08:33 GMT -5
Pretty much, yes. You've got no save of any sort your guardsman could take, especially since cover is a modifier now.
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Post by Major Downer on Oct 23, 2017 1:20:03 GMT -5
Pretty much, yes. You've got no save of any sort your guardsman could take, especially since cover is a modifier now. Thanks Reds, Playing against your self to learn can be like weeeing in the wind, YouTube Vids help though.
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