Need some Armageddon Doctrine rules clarification

[theramirocketman]

I just played a game against an IG player and he used the Armageddon Doctrine combined with First Rank Fire Second Rank Fire to get 8 shots per guardsmen at 18" range.

That seemed pretty OP to me so after the battle I looked up the doctrine and the wording is pretty confusing.

I interpret the wording to mean the rapid fire range of rapid fire weapons is extended to 18", while his interpretation is that the doctrine doubles the number of shots all rapid fire weapons as well as increasing rapid fire range to 18". This way, he can get his lasguns to rapid fire 2 with FRFSRF (meaning 4 shots at 18") and then double that with the Armageddon doctrine. He also uses this to double the shots from his plasma guns. This is really difficult to combat so I'd like to know if this is the proper interpretation of the doctrine or not. Thanks 

[RedsandRoyals]

I think it's pretty clear you're correct unless someone's intentionally reading it the wrong way.

"Infantry units with this doctrine may double the number of attacks they make with Rapid Fire at range of up to 18', RATHER THAN half the weapon's range AS NORMAL."

Emphasis mine, obviously, but it highlights two important parts. Those two bits very, very strongly suggest that you're extending rapid fire range. I mean, the entire second half of the sentence is basically there to tell you that you are replacing the regular rapid fire rules with what's defined in the first part. That's it. If it was how he wanted to use it, it would be "... may double the number of attacks they make with Rapid Fire, and increase rapid fire range to 18". I see no "And" anywhere in that sentence to imply his alleged double boost.

Tell this guy he's a cheating jerk and don't play him if he insists it works this way. You can ask GW on their facebook page too, they usually give good clarification.



Edit: Here is a quote directly from the GW community page previewing the doctrine. It actualy defines the exact amount of shots he should be getting under the scenario you're describing.

Industrial Efficiency allows your Guardsmen to lay down a withering hail of fire at midrange – an Infantry Squad with lasguns and the First Rank Fire! Second Rank Fire! Order will be putting out 36 shots at 18” and closer!

[treadiculous]

they state 36 shots from a squad.

So, a squad consists of 9 rapid fire lasguns and a laspistol.

With the rapid fire rule, this means anything in short range is shot at twice.

9 x 2 = 18 shots fired.

short range is normally 12"

this rule increases rapid fire range to 18"

in order to get 36 shots as described in the example it must double the number of shots fired in rapid fire range; 18 x 2 = 36.

36 / 9 = 4, so each lagunner gets to fire 4 shots.



then add the effects of First Rank Fire Second Rank Fire

this changes a rapid fire weapon to RapidFire2, which allows its user to fire 4 shots in half range and 2 shots at over half range.

if it is possible to give an order to a unit with doctrine then it seems this would give a total of 8 shots per lasgunner.

Argueably, it does not specify that you can give the order to a weapon that is RapidFire2, only RapidFire weapons can benefit from FRFSRF.



the plasma guns would not benefit from FRFSRF eitherway, though would benefit from Industrial Effieciency.



I would also back Reds' comment and say that the latter part of the rule describes how it is a modification to the existing RapidFire rule

A normal RpidFire weapon will 'double the number of shots fired at half range'

The Industrial Effieciency rule is replacing half with 18"



I would ask him if he felt it was balanced? does it compare in strength to other doctrines? would he fight against an opponent using that rule?

If he is able to empathise with what he is asking of his fellow players he may realise that he's using an interprettation which is OP,

Even if the Warhammer Community made the mistake of calculating it as 36 shots, he should be able to recognise that its a strange ruling.

[RedsandRoyals]

Feb 13, 2018 18:30:04 GMT -5 treadiculous said:

I would ask him if he felt it was balanced? does it compare in strength to other doctrines? would he fight against an opponent using that rule?

If he is able to empathise with what he is asking of his fellow players he may realise that he's using an interprettation which is OP,

Even if the Warhammer Community made the mistake of calculating it as 36 shots, he should be able to recognise that its a strange ruling.

This! Can you imagine if 80 shots a squad was actually a thing? The internet would be awash with rage. GW would have had their headquarters burned down.

[theramirocketman]

Thanks so much for the replies!

I thought his interpretation was strange because I'd never heard of this IG cheese being used. Clearly it's not a thing, I just wanted to check before accusing him of cheating/misreading the rules.

[treadiculous]

Given the mistake made by the warhammer website itself, I can imagine he thought it was fair game, I certainly have got really excited about rules combo's which I later realise are OP - sometimes I needed this illustrated to me. I would hope he'd be able to accept it - he's not had to make conversions or buy expensive models to gain this rule - and it still applies (though with less strength) so he should be okay with it really.