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Post by cjjohns8 on Dec 1, 2018 8:25:03 GMT -5
Can I get any feedback on this list? I need all the help I can get. The only thing I am firm on keeping is Castellan Creed and Celestine. I think two company commanders can be better, but I like him for fluff reasons; and Celestine is bae.
Brigade- Cadian
HQ- (Warlord- Superior Tactical Training) Lord Castellan Creed.
HQ- Knight Commander Pask in Command Battle Tank
HQ- (Relic- Kurov's Aquila) Company Commander
HQ- Lord Commissar
Troop- Infantry Squad: x7 lasgun, x1 lascannon, x1 sergeant with bolter
Troop- Infantry Squad: x7 lasgun, x1 lascannon, x1 sergeant with bolter
Troop- Infantry Squad: x7 lasgun, x1 lascannon, x1 sergeant with bolter
Troop- Infantry Squad: x7 lasgun, x1 lascannon, x1 sergeant with bolter
Troop- Infantry Squad: x7 lasgun, x1 lascannon, x1 sergeant with bolter
Troop- Infantry Squad: x9 lasgun, x1 sergeant with bolter
Elite- (Power- Nightshroud) Astropath
Elite- Command Squad: x3 sniper, x1 banner
Elite- Special Weapons Squad: x3 lasgun, x3 sniper
Fast Attack: Armoured Sentinel: x1 lascannon
Fast Attack: Armoured Sentinel: x1 lascannon
Fast Attack: Armoured Sentinel: x1 lascannon
Heavy Support: Leman Russ Battle Tank: x1 lascannon, x1 hunter-kill missle
Heavy Support: Leman Russ Battle Tank: x1 lascannon, x1 hunter-kill missle
Heavy Support: Leman Russ Battle Tank: x1 lascannon, x1 hunter-kill missle
Batallion- Adeptus Minostorum
HQ- (Relic- Blade of Admonition) Cannoness.
HQ- Celestine + two Geminae
Troop: Battle Sister Squad
Troop: Battle Sister Squad
Troop: Battle Sister Squad
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Post by Trickstick on Dec 1, 2018 11:45:48 GMT -5
Welcome! I'm not too knowledgeable about Sororitas, but I can give a few Guard pointers:
- Does Pask have any weapon options? He is usually a good place to spend at least a few points, as his high BS gets more use out of them than other tanks. I would at least put on some bolters.
- I'd try to find the points to fill out the infantry weapons. Plasma guns are pretty cheap and good when you take them in numbers. 6 las/plas squads would make a nice gunline.
- The command squad and sniper squad are a place you could cut some points. Snipers are ok and the standard is useful but I would probably at least cut the sniper squad, and downgrade the company commander to a platoon commander to save some points.
- Hunter killer missiles are a bit expensive for what they do, may be better to take some real guns.
So, just a few random ideas I saw at a glance ends up with:
That leaves you with 82 points for a few upgrades to the battle sisters. There are also options to cut some of the sisters back for a few more points of Guard. You could downgrade the battalion to a simple patrol detachment, with just Celestine and a single sister squad. You would lose some command points put would be able to beef them up into a 10 or 15 sister squad with weapons. You could also take some Geminae Superia for Celestine, which seem to be a big part of her power.
You could even do something a bit weird, like take an outrider detachment and three squads of seraphim. Not sure how good they are but I like the idea of a load of jump sisters.
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Post by RedsandRoyals on Dec 1, 2018 11:52:45 GMT -5
I'll roll down your list here and offer comments, then post a reworked suggestion.
Cadian HQs: Creed's great at 2k, but I wouldn't take him at lower levels, just fair warning. Pask is wasted in a regular Russ. Take him in an Executioner with plasma sponsons. He's also the one place (aside from an Annihilator) where you would want a hull lascannon, although I prefer to leave the hull HB on to save points. Remember that putting him in an Executioner and keeping him still means you can have him issue Pound them to Dust, then overcharge safely thanks to Cadian rerolls. You'd be looking at 2d6 (rerollable) Str 8 AP -3 shots that hit on 2's and reroll 1s. Put him in cover at the start because he's an enormous fire magnet, but one that's immensely hard to kill. Kurov's Aquila is a bit of a waste for you. You have over 20 command points already. I'd recommend either Relic of Lost Cadia (good in general thanks to wound rerolls, GREAT against Chaos. Remember, the buffs last until the end of the turn so that includes overwatch), or Laurels of Command (great for maximizing infantry potential, even better on heavy weapon teams).
Cadian Troops: There are two problems here. First, you're sacrificing Lascannon efficiency for protection. Most infantry squads are going to want First Rank Fire, Second Rank Fire if they're shooting, and that doesn't buff lascannons at all. They want to be issued Bring It Down. If you want a heavy weapon, why not use a mortar? Since it fires multiple shots the lack of FRFSRF doesn't hurt it as much. They're dirt cheap, so when your opponent is trying to shoot your troops off objectives (or assault them off) and you lose a squad it hurts less. As an added bonus, it can indirect fire at the opponent's screens, objective campers, etc while being hard to dig out. The second issue is that your infantry is a bit too static. I know you have the Battle Sisters for maneuvering, but they won't last as long as you think, and sometimes throwing cheap guardsmen forward to eat shots or a charge is a much more palatable choice than using Sisters for it. Since you also have the potential for throwing FRF,SRF around on your infantry, they have a shocking amount of damage potential. The boltguns are fine, but not especially useful in the grand scheme of things. They should be the first thing you strip out if you're looking to try and squeeze something else into your list.
Elites
The Astropath isn't a bad choice, especially when pairing him with Pask. The company command squad is... medoicre. Snipers are always more of a psychological threat than a real one, but they're so cheap there's no reason not to if you're taking the standard. The standard isn't especially necessary thanks to the commissar, but at least that would allow you to push him forward while the banner stays back. I'll also point out that a platoon commander and regular commissar cost 1pt more than your command squad, and you get an additional order and superior version of the banner, since you get the Ld buff and can reroll tests for the cost of a model. Remember, you can also use the Commissar Tank strategem for 2cp to gain another morale buff aura. You also have the advantage of deploying everything first before you pick which tank it affects if memory serves, so you can patch up holes in your line that other morale buff units aren't covering.
Please, please don't take the special weapon squad with sniper rifles. They're atrocious. Their weapons aren't worth the order it would cost to buff them to the point where they'd do anything. I'd strongly, strongly suggest either giving them plasma guns, or dropping them entirely for a platoon commander. Platoon commanders are extremely useful, since they can follow mobile squads and provide a character who's hard to dig out but can still claim objectives.
Fast Attack: It pains me to say this (particularly because I have some), but sentinels are garbage generally and the worst possible lascannon platform specifically. They can't be buffed with orders, they're too fragile for the amount of fire giving them a lascannon will attract, and their average BS combined with the fact they sort of want to be moving means you're not going to hit much. If you want to run them, I would suggest keeping them cheap. Use the scout sentinels to deny infiltrators and deep strike and to rush up and tie up enemy units (the chainsaw isn't a bad option for these guys), or run them armored and put an autocannon on them and use them to try and put wounds on a tough enemy unit so you can trigger Overlapping Fields of Fire (which you should be using once a turn, every turn to kill one big unit in the enemy army anyway). The sentinel's problems are made worse by the fact that they're competing for a slot with Hellhounds, which are absolutely fantastic in every single way. They're tough, fast, destructive, and your opponent will NEED to dedicate AT fire to wiping them out first turn or else they'll wreak havoc on any exposed infantry short of terminators or MEQs in cover. They're also a great way force your opponent into a reactive mindset on turn one. With track guards and a dual flamer loadout, they're twice the cost of an armored lascannon sentinel but easily worth three times as much.
Heavy Support: A few things of note here. First, drop the HK missiles. A one-and-done shot fired at guard BS is never worth it, even with the Cadian rerolls. Their relatively poor AP makes them bad choices against most vehicles as well compared to most other AT options Guard can take, so you're paying 36pts in total for about a 33% chance of doing d6 wounds to a single rhino. Those points can be better spent elsewhere. Second, you should replace one Russ with a basilisk. It's actually better anti-tank thank most Russes thanks to their increased Strength and AP, and your opponent has to dedicate resources to dig it out from behind your battle line thanks to your ability to hide it behind buildings. You should also consider trading in a regular Russ flavor for another Executioner. Keep him next to Pask for the Pound them to Dust tank order and overcharge away. If you don't mind doing a bit of conversion work, a Leman Russ Annihilator with a hull lascannon is also a good choice. You get five lascannon shots on a very tough platform, and you don't actually need to keep it near Pask for orders since it's natively rerolling 1's anyway when it's stationary, and the only other order it would really benefit from is "Strike and Shroud". I would also suggest dropping the hull lascannons for the same reason that you don't want them on a Sentinel. It's one shot at poor BS. Either go all in on an Annihilator or keep your lascannons in heavy weapon teams. Finally, I suggest taking all your Russes and Pask and shoving them into a Spearhead detachment. They gain ObSec and you get another command point. Use HW teams in your brigade instead.
Sorotias HQ: Celestine is pure magic, but she can't fill out the two mandatory battalion HQ slots on her own. Throw in a cheap cannoness with a power sword (or axe) and storm bolter in. She'll buff the other sister squads and provide a surprisingly punchy melee character who hits on 2+ and rerolls 1's while tanking hits on a 3+/4++
Sororitas Troops: I assume these are minimum squad sizes. Throw storm bolters on a sister and the squad leader in each unit for some extra dakka. All three squads together will dump out 60 shots in rapid fire range, hitting on 3's and rerolling 1's if the Canoness is behind them. It's a good way to drag down things with a large number of wounds or a good Inv save like the larger demons.
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Brigade (Cadia)
HQ
Creed (Warlord)
Lord Commissar
Company Commander (Laurels of Command)
Troops
Infantry Squad w/Mortar, Boltgun
Infantry Squad w/Mortar, Boltgun
Infantry Squad w/Mortar, Boltgun
Infantry Squad
Infantry Squad
Infantry Squad
Elites
Company Commans Squad w/ Banner, x3 Sniper Rifles
Platoon Commander
Astropath w/ Nightshroud
Fast Attack
Scout Sentinel w/ Multilaser, Chainsaw
Scout Sentinel w/ Multilaser, Chainsaw
Hellhound w/ Hull HF, Track Guards
Heavy Support
HW Section w/ Lascannons
HW Section w/ Lascannons
HW Section w/ Mortars
Spearhead (Cadia)
HQ
Knight Commander Pask in LR Executioner w/ Hull HB, Plasma Sponsons
Heavy Support
LR Battle Tank w/ Hull HB, HB Sponsons
LR Executioner w/ Hull HB
Basilisk w/ Hull HB
Battalion (Adeptus Sororitas)
HQ
Celestine w/ 2 Gemina
Canoness w/ Power Sword, Stormbolter
Troops
Sister squad w/ x2 Storm Bolter
Sister squad w/ x2 Storm Bolter
Sister squad w/ x2 Storm Bolter
23 Command Points, 1998pts
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This is pretty straightforward. Creed buffs your HW teams and uses the extra orders from his warlord trait to dish more to the mortar infantry squads. Use the company commander and platoon commander to push up your three infantry squads. The Laurels of Command will let you throw out two orders onto a squad from time to time, so use it to issue either Forwards, for the Emperor!, Move, move move!, or Get back in the Fight!, then layer FRFSRF on them. That will make your squads VERY speedy and quite killy too. Dig your Sororitas into cover on one of the flanks and spam out shots, or use them to roll forward to grab objectives. Keep them as a group and try to stick to the flanks, though. That'll deny your opponent's shorter range weapons on the other side of the table a chance to shoot them up. Everything else is pure gunline. Try to put a wound on something with one of the stationary mortar squads before firing your lascannons at it using Overlapping Fields of Fire, and use Creed's orders to have them reroll missed shots. All the lascannons should shoot ONE target for maximum effect. Deploy Pask and the second Executioner side by side and use them as anti tank, and use the other Russ to anchor a flank and rough up infantry and light vehicles. Celestine, the Hellhound, and the Sents should all push forward.
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Post by Trickstick on Dec 1, 2018 14:37:02 GMT -5
I think there are a few points that I disagree with your assessment of units Reds, although generally we are on the same page.
- I am really not a fan of HWSs. Putting three lascannons on the board will be the first thing to die, and there is very little you can do to stop it. Mortars are good because you can hide them behind something, but I like the ablative wounds a squad gives to a lascannon. That said, I don't really gunline anymore as I like my squads mobile.
- I quite like lascannon armoured sentinels. They are tough enough that they can resist most low-mid level fire, whilst the heavy AT stuff is probably gunning for the Russes. I do run them as Tallarn though, so the mobility is not a problem. Cadian versions may be a bit weaker, more like a turret really.
- I love lascannons on Russes. With the ability to split fire you can throw single lascannon shots at tanks whilst your battlecannon/bolters go for some other target. Being able to fire individual lascannons prevents overkill problems that can happen. I also don't mind 4+ single shot weapons that much, as I usually have multiple units anyway.
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Post by nutty on Dec 1, 2018 17:29:55 GMT -5
Well, Reds and Trick have covered most of what I would recommend, although my own preferences have some overlap with both. Finding what works for you is half the fun of the hobby afterall.
Personally, I like to protect my lascannons by placing them in infantry squads, and keeping my HWTs cheap (Mortars or Heavy Bolters). But if you want to maximize the effects of orders on your lascannons you're better of taking them in teams. Luckily you can switch their position around after a couple of games without having to redesign your list.
I quite like scout sentinels as a denial/harassment unit, so I usually take them with flamers. I either use them to block parts of 'no man's land' so my opponent can not drop units in, and if they have nothing to deepstrike I place them as far forward as I can to threaten units with the heavy flamer. Like Trick said they are quite resilient against small arms fire so they often survive with a few wounds remaining. Or they take a few anti-tank shots to the face and die, but that means those shots don't target my own big guns.
Basilisks and Hellhounds are something to consider: Reds made a bunch of good points for including them. If you have the option to get them; grab some, you won't regret it.
Snipers are alright, but I wouldn't take them in a SWS. Even at BS4 they won't do a whole lot, but 3 snipers hitting on 4's aren't going to add much. If you want snipers I would recommend some Ratlings: they have a good BS, infiltrate, and can move after shooting.
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Post by RedsandRoyals on Dec 1, 2018 17:39:17 GMT -5
I agree that HW teams are squishy outside of infantry, but I tend to run 3 sections full of them so they usually are around for a little while at least. They just have so much damage potential from orders in the HW sections that I'm usually willing to sacrifice some durability instead. Maybe it's also my local meta, but I've had/seen few problems with overkilling something, and FAR more underkilling, so I have less faith in single shot solutions. Split fire makes it much easier to avoid overkilling anyway.
Sentinels are great for Tallarn, as their main downside of moving and shooting is negated. But as Cadia they're reduced to turrets like Trickstick said. There are just so many better ways to get AT in a Guard list. I wish they could take heavy bolters like the Elysian ones...
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