Cheapest Reliable Brigade (for Imperial Soup)

[Aeon]

So I run Deathwatch these days, but running them by themselves leaves them perilously outnumbered, no matter what points level you play at, and besides that, it's way more fun to keep your force small so each model has a lot of character and you can remember them performing epic deeds. As such, I decided to ally in Imperial Guard, and took my first look into doing so in 8th edition

This list might be common knowledge to you all, but I was very impressed by it. Dumbfounded, actually. In a 2000 point list, I have my Kill team that acts as an assassination unit. They are in a flyer, every model has a combi weapon or storm bolter, several have storm shields, with a watch master and a librarian who has Veil of Time (re roll charge, re roll advance, always strike first in combat), and Null Zone (turn off enemy invuln saves within 6", very strong spell). In small games where they are alone, I have flown them to an isolated unit on turn 1, and by turn 2 I disembark and wipe them out. In bigger points games, they'll do exactly that, but they'll have a ton of support from the Imperial Guard, and 15 command points to use thanks to it!

So here's what I decided to run. When I say cheapest reliable, I mean I sacrificed some cheapness on points in order to take some stuff I actually need so I can still be a threat to the enemy, but otherwise, everything is as low cost as I can possibly get

Brigade

H.Q:
Primaris Psyker
Primaris Psyker
Primaris Psyker

All with Night shroud and Barrier

Elites:
3x Commissars
3x Platoon Commanders

Troops:
6x Infantry Squads

Fast Attack:
5x Rough Riders
5x Rough Riders
5x Rough Rider

Heavy Support:
3x Mortars
3x Mortars
3x Mortars

735 points

I add in my deathwatch kill team, and the list becomes almost 1500 points. In case anyone's interested, here's the kill team

Patrol Detachment:

H.Q:
Watch Master (Warlord)
Banebolts of Eryxia (+1 damage, 6+ to wound causes mortal wound), Watch Eternal (6+ negates a model losing his last wound)

Librarian
Veil of Time (re roll charge, re roll advance, strike first in combat), Null Zone (turn off invuln saves within 6" of Librarian)

Troops:
10x Veterans
Sergeant w/ power fist, combi melta
Veteran w/ power fist, combi melta
Black Shield w/ plasma pistol, power sword
2x Veterans w/ storm bolter, storm shield
Veteran w/ combi-plasma, storm shield
2x Veterans w/ combi plasma
Veteran w/ combi melta
Veteran w/ Deathwatch Frag Cannon (2d6 Auto hitting S6 AP -1 shots!)

Flyer:
Corvus Blackstar
twin assault cannon, hurrican bolter, infernum halo launcher (re-roll saving throws of 1), storm strike missiles



Now, regarding the Imperial Guard here, if anyone has any suggestions for me, let me know

Regarding Rough Riders: I know that scout sentinels are cheaper, but, the rough riders can outflank on turn 2 and potentialy tie up a heavy hitter unit like a tank, or Havok squad, something like that. With 3 of them, I can use them to as a very nasty, low cost distraction as my guardsmen advance up the field to get in rapid fire range. Not terribly dangerous if targeted, but dangerous if ignored. So it creates a dilema for my opponent, those hunting lances are no joke

I want to run the guardsmen in blobs using some of my command points. 3 blobs of 20, with a commissar, platoon commander and primaris psyker for each blob. That's great leadership, a single order for each blob, and either night shroud or barrier, situation depending. The blobs will surround the characters and keep them alive (barring snipers haha, might have to send the deathwatch after them if they are present)

A blob at 12" given the First Rank Fire order, shoots 72 times! Obviously, they won't all be alive by the time they get there, but they're still shooting at Rapid Fire 2 as they advance. Enough lasguns can kill anything in 8th edition, so I'm not worried about special weapons

Redsandroyals told me that Mortar teams are actually really good now, since they are cheap and blast markers are gone. They'll just remain out of sight and pick on low model count units

Am I on the right track here, boys and girl?

[nutty]

I'm personally not a big fan of using the Guard in this fashion, but that does not mean it's not valid.

Mortars are cheap and usefull: just plonk them on a backfield objective and pick off stragglers or light infantry.

I want to give barebones infantry squads and rough riders a try, but I haven't got around to it. So I'm curious to hear how they work for you.

Scout Sentinels are, imho, mainly useful for area denial and I love using them in that role. Since you don't have any backfield units that need to be screened.. I don't see much value for them in your list. Unless you needed to save a few points whilst keeping the brigade intact.

[RedsandRoyals]

You're my bro and I love ya, but this list screams 'Please table me so I can get on with everything else I have to do today". The real problem here is the Deathwatch, but you asked about the Guard so let's stick to that for now.

- First, ask yourself if a brigade is the way you want to go. You've got a lot of bodies without any real active killing power, especially in terms of anti tank, and the points you're spending on the tax units for the brigade could be better sunk into other places. For instance, if you just took the Loyal 32 (2 company commanders and 30 infantry with no upgrades), that would save enough points to put two intercessor squads in to your Deathwatch patrol detachment to bump it to a battalion, and you'd have points left over for other fun stuff like basilisks or hellblasters. You've got two less command points but your army will be much more effective, and you'll actually have things worth spending command points on.

- Second, a wise man once told me "Don't half @ss two things, whole @ss one thing". You need to make that call in regards to your army composition if you're taking more than one faction. If the majority of your bodies and firepower is coming from Guard, maybe you should shift your focus and make the Guard the primary striking component of your army with Deathwatch support. If you want guard for the CP farm, then keep them as cheap and small in number as possible and go in on the Deathwatch. Right now you're in a weird position where the majority of your army in terms of bodies and firepower is made up of your CP battery and harassing units, and your actual killing power is concentrated in a single unit in a single transport that will draw all the fire in the world turn 1. A lot of armies lose potency when diluted thanks to 8th focusing so much on synergy and key words. If you want the CP battery, run it small and cheap (30 guardsmen are still surprisingly tough and killy with orders if you concentrate them on one objective).

- Third, if you do want the brigade, you should re-jig some unit choices. See below.

HQs
You'd be better off with a commissar and a pair of company commanders, or just three company commanders in general. Your infantry will only be as effective as the orders you give them, so you want to be throwing out reroll hits and FRFSRF as much as possible. You also don't need anywhere near that much psychic support unless you're only fighting Thousand Sons these days, and you don't have much worth casting those two powers on since they only work on Guardsmen.

Elites
Take astropaths if you want the powers and denials that the Primaris psykers give you. A pair will do, since you can give one Night Shroud and one Barrier. You only get to cast them once a turn anyway. For the third slot, a commissar or platoon commander is fine. Take the commissar if you ran three company commanders, take the platoon commander if you ran a Lord Commissar. 2CP autopasses morale and for 1CP you can test on a d3 so we have a lot of ways to mitigate morale issues without a commissar.

Troops
I'm a huge fan of running basic guard squads, but you might want to consider putting something like plasma guns in them. Some people like lascannons but I've never had good results with them in infantry squads myself. If you're running Cadian, put a heavy weapon in half the squads. Otherwise consider Mordians for overwatch or Steel Legion for the rapid fire boost.

Fast Attack
I like rough riders, but they best they can do is harass screens. Remember you're coming in 9in+ away from an enemy unit so the charge will be a reach, and they'll die if shot by just about anything. The sentinel is arguably the better investment since they can push back infiltrators and are a bit tougher when in cover. If you do want rough riders, take a full squad of 10 and a pair of sentinels.

Heavy Support
Unless you're fighting guard you probably don't need three squads of mortars. Two and a lascannon section might be a better choice.

A quick note about the deathwatch: You're dumping 1200pts+ into 12 men and a single flyer. Unless you're Custodes this is a really, really bad idea. If the flyer gets shot down (and what else would a person shoot turn 1?), your squad will foot slog and die. If they get out and fail a charge, they die next turn. If they charge a unit, they need to either wrap it to prevent it from falling back next turn, or wrap another enemy unit for the same reason on their consolidation move. Otherwise your opponent will just fall back and shoot them, and they'll die. One wound marines are very squishy this edition, even with storm shields (still a 1 in 3 chance they die every time they have to take a save). You are investing about two thirds of your army's points into a single fragile bomb unit that can be easily interdicted or wiped out.

Kill Team is great if you want to run a fluffy Deathwatch group, but sadly trying to do it in 8th is a bad plan, especially at 2000pts.

[Aeon]

So much advice, so many list changes! I have much to ponder on

[Aeon]

Ok, revamped to be more deadly, more survivable. Complete and total re imagining of the list, check it out

Imperial Guard Battalion

H.Q:
3x Company Commanders

Elites:
3x Commissars

Troops:
6x Squads w/ Missile launcher

Imperial Guard Spearhead Detachment

H.Q:
Tank Commander
Leman Russ Battle Tank, Heavy bolter sponsons, Heavy stubber pintel

Heavy Support
3x Basilisks

Leman Russ Battle tanks w/ Heavy bolter sponsons

Deathwatch Battalion

H.Q:
Watch Master (Warlord)
Bane bolts of Eryxia, Watch eternal

2x Chaplains w/ Power fist and Crozius Arcanum

Troops:
5 man Kill Team
Sergeant w/ combi melta, 2x Storm bolter & Storm shield, Combi plasma, Deathwatch frag cannon

5 man Kill Team
Sergeant w/ combi melta, 2x Storm bolter & storm shield, combi plasma, Storm bolter

5 man Kill Team
Sergeant w/ combi melta, 2x Storm bolter & storm shield, combi plasma, Missile launcher

3x Drop pods w/ storm bolters

Total: 2000 points

It's 11 command points (14 if this counts as battle forged, not to savvy on 8th edition yet). Using some points to make 3 blobs of 20. A commissar and company commander supports each blob, and each blob supports some vehicles. Blob 1 hides in a corner with 2 of the basilisks, Blob 2 takes another corner with a single basilisk, and blob 3 covers the 2 Leman Russ. It's a ton of bodies and vehicles, should cover most deployment zones with enough stuff that deep striking behind me will be impossible, or at least very difficult

The deathwatch got reorganized. Instead of 1 super squad with tons of expensive equipment, I've decided to drop pod them and send them at high value targets. Being 9" away, I can still rapid fire with all my storm bolters and combi plasmas, get those melta shots in, and the missile launcher and frag cannon are effective up close as well. They'll hunt snipers, low T/low Save mobs, artillery pieces, etc, while the guard pours on the damage from afar. Since each kill team has a chaplain or the watch master riding with them, they re roll all misses in shooting and combat phase, so accuracy is going to hella good, gonna land a ton of hits, deal a lot of damage, and the storm shields should keep them alive for a turn or 2

How am I looking now, Reds (and others)?

[nutty]

I'm fairly certain it is a battle-forged list: every unit is in a detachment, and all the detachments share a keyword. As far as I know those are the only criteria you need to meet.

Why did you go from 6 barebones squads to 6 squads with a ML? It looks like a decent weapon now that the price has dropped a little, but it does make you guardsmen very static. I always bring a few squads with special weapons so they can move up and take an objective, or plug a hole in my line, etc. You'd might want to arm the Russ blob with some special weapons instead; the Russes might want to move at some point anyway, so it'd be nice if their bubblewrap can move with them. If you take out 2 Missile Launchers you almost have the points to include a squad of mortars, so that could be something to consider too.

[RedsandRoyals]

Guard

I agree with Nutty, I'd say drop half the missile launchers. Three is still a good number and you do need that mobility for at least some of your squads. That'll give you the points for the mortar section Nutty mentioned. Don't feel obligated to take special weapons in your mobile squads though- they're going to be shot up quite a bit and probably charged so there's nothing wrong with keeping them cheap and getting an extra four lasgun shots with FRFSRF. I'd also say you're going in too heavily on your characters. You only need one or two commissars. I'd even suggest replacing the third with a platoon commander and dropping one of your company commanders. An astropath would be another good choice, as you have stuff worth casting Nightshroud on. Basilisks are great, but two are probably enough. If you can find the points upgrade it to a Leman Russ.

Some other advice is conditional depending on the regiment you run. If you're doing Cadians, you should take Lascannons instead of MLs and an Executioner instead of a flat Russ. If you're doing Vossies, some other Russ variants become a bit more viable thanks to the range boost. Mordians will want sponsons for the extra overwatch, etc.

Deathwatch

Take Deathwatch-specific advice with a grain of salt here since my experience with them in 8th is mostly fighting against a Primaris-only deathwatch army. Deathwatch do two things very well: Take down tough characters and creatures, and blow away infantry. They can obviously be upgraded to do other things well, but that's usually very expensive and you lose the specialist ammunition that's built into the veteran you're already paying for. The storm bolters are a good choice here, especially if you're drop podding the squads in, but the heavy weapons are not. If I'm remember the frag cannon correctly, you won't be able to get it out of the pod and into the range where it can really lay down hurt since you have to stay 9in+ away when you pop out. The missile launcher is an odd choice as well given you'll be taking a penalty to hit with it. I'd suggest condensing the purpose of your squads a bit: Throw the combi plasma in one squad, load the storm bolters onto the other two squads and drop the storm shields entirely*. I believe the deathwatch have the ability to deepstrike, either natively or through a strategem. I would deepstrike the combi plasma squad, run the bolter squads as objective grabbers in Razorbacks (ideally lasbacks or assbacks if you can afford them) and drop the dropods entirely. I'd also suggest dropping both chappies for one Librarian. Melee isn't where you want to be with your expensive one-wound infantry unless you're fighting guard or Tau, and the extra deny and smite may come in very hand.



_{*I love the look the storm shields but honestly, putting them on a one wound model is questionable unless that model is very big and scary. If you're running meleewatch you want to run that squad into screens, like grots or guardsmen. Anything that would be swinging back at them with a weapon that necessitates a storm shield save is best dealt with at arms length, because they will probably be better at melee than you}

[Aeon]

Well, I initially built my deathwatch without storm shields. They died very fast the first time anything with AP shot at them. Since chapter approved dropped, they are only 2 points apiece, so throwing 2 or 3 into each squad, means I can roll for wounds 1 at a time. I lost every game I played up until I included the storm shields, then my squads were almost impossible to wipe out at 1000 points. The storm shield guys did die eventually, but they did their job tremendously well. The shields are going to stay since they are so cheap, and I have modeled several of them already

The missile launcher hits on a 4+ on the move, with a re roll from the chaplain. I think that's 75% accuracy. Same with the heavy bolter. I take those 2 guns because it allows the use of the Deathwatch strategims for those guns (the anti aircraft missile is insanely useful, and the heavy bolter shell that causes mortal wounds kills hard units like Lychguard, Carnifex, or Terminators)

Will re arrange the guard again and return here