Post by RedsandRoyals on Oct 22, 2019 20:28:48 GMT -5
I suspect you're using the Codex to do this, and not a program like Battlescribe? GW releases Chapter Approved at the end of every year with points adjustments, so the Valk actually costs 121pts in that configuration, not 161. Some other quick notes...
- You need just one more HQ to turn this into a Battalion, which nets you 5 more command points. I recommend either a Primaris Psyker or a second Tempestor Prime. The Primaris is probably the better bet, given he adds pyschic defense and buffs to your formation.
- The Command Rod takes the place of his firearm, so you can't take a plasma pistol. I'd just give him a free chainsword for emergencies. If you're doing anything with him but hiding him behind the drop squads and flinging orders, he'll die. Also give him the warlord trait from the Vigilus formation, it's super good.
- Plasma will serve you better than Meltas. Because of how dropping out of the Valk works, you'll almost never get the Melta bonus for close range, but you should be in rapid fire range for plasma guns without issue. When the plasma squads drop out of the Valk with Tempestor, you can overcharge your plasma to hit on 2+, not overheat, and get additional shots on a 5+. The Scion special orders will then let you reroll ALL failed wound rolls against vehicles or monstrous creatures. Against most medium armor you'll get ~11 hits, 9-10 wounds, and do 12-14 unsaved damage. That'll kill most tanks dead (someone please check my math though, I'm assuming a T7 vehicle). A pair of meltas might get you 7 wounds on average. Plasma also does it's damage across more shots, making it more versatile against multiple targets. It's the difference between wiping a squad of Primaris marines versus overkilling two of them.
- Power weapons on sergeants are optimistic, to put it gently. Give them chainswords and get a free extra attack. If your Scions are in melee, you're either screwed anyway or fighting something so squishy that a power weapon is overkill, and the extra chainsword attack will be more helpful.
- I'd consider adding a Tempestus command squad full of volley guns, if you want to take those. That way they can sit in the backfield and offer fire support. If you want to make them a bit more durable, take three and a guy with a medpack but that's a dubious investment. By taking those guys, you can fill all three scion troop squads with plasma and fling them downrange. As an added benefit, the command squad only has four guys so you have a spare model for your Tempestor Prime (although I imagine you're converting yours.
Since Scions are all about the alpha strike and trying to kick the opponent's head in on turn 1, you may as well go all in and load up with as much firepower as possible and throw it all at your opponent. A word of caution, though: Because of the all-in nature of this list, you're extremely vulnerable to screens keeping you away from the enemy's big juicy units. Screening is hugely critical in 8th and most competent players will be doing it (although their ability to do so fully may be impaired at 500pts). They're also going to know exactly what you're doing when when they see you unpack your army since you only have the one viable tactic with this build. If your alpha fails or your opponent gets first turn and blows your Valk out of the sky before you can drop your guys in, the game will be over by turn 2. I won't say don't play this list at 500pts, but I will say that you'll be better served by conventional Guard units at low point levels, which can then be supplemented by this list to bring your army up to 1000pts.
There may be no "I" in "Team", but there is a "Team" in "Meat Shield".
Rolling Thunder, I like the idea of essentially a drop kill team and if I recall your fluff correctly this should give you a nice match of the grim professional death squad style in your lore. Reds is correct on revamping it to be a Battalion, the added 5 command points will be gold in any game. I’m guessing you tailored your list to match the drop trooper stratagems, because both formation stratagems will link into this list perfectly. The best part about your list is the small size and foot print allows you to get a ton of utility out of the aura buffs, so I’ll make some suggestions to really get a kick out of them. Additionally, by making this a self-contained detachment it will allow you to slot this group into a 1000pts army without needing to dedicate any additional support to them from the 1000pts section. I have a few suggestions to help ramp up your list’s killing power without changing any units. I’m going to use a modified version of the list Reds displayed, but feel free to take/drop whatever you want from the list:
Primaris Psyker I’d start by making the Primaris Psyker your overall warlord and taking Old Grudges. This will let you choose a single unit each game that all your units can reroll all “to wound” rolls against. With the amount of plasma you’re slinging that’s a ton of reliable heavy damage, hell even the hot-shot guns and volley guns can do respectable damage with those buffs. For powers I’d suggest giving him Psychic Maelstrom and Nightshroud, the mortal wounds from could Psychic Maelstrom finish off a wounded tank/character or soften up a target for your plasma units. Nightshroud would be perfect for the Valk, getting that off would give it a -2 to hit if you plan it correctly, otherwise you could buff up a squad to take incoming fire.
Tempestor Prime I’d suggest utilizing the Field Commander trait (1 command point cost) to give the Tempestor Prime the detachment Warlord trait, Grav Commando, plus 1 to hit for any unit disembarking a Valk with your weapon loadout, mixed with Old Grudges is a murder train. Equipment wise Reds is correct, we can’t give them a plasma pistol and Command Rod (I fully share the view that this is incredibly stupid) so you’ll have to drop that pistol, you could give him a power sword if you’d like. I would give him The Tactical Auto-Reliquary of Tyberius, that allows you to issue 2 free orders out on a 2+, effectively covering your whole force for orders.
Tempestus Scions and Tempestus Command Squads This is a good squad load out, I think the plasma pistols work here as you have nothing else to spend those points on anyways and these troopers will always be near the enemy. I’d experiment with how you want the weapon loadouts to be issued between volleygun squads/volleygun command squads. Valk based Melta is one of the few semi effective ways to run it (standard disembark lets you get in that range, I think grav chute got nerfed sadly), so you might have some luck with them but the noble meltagun is in a rough spot atm.
Valkyrie Solid unit with a good anti infantry loadout that should cover the Scions anti-vehicle specialty. Just keep in mind in 8th its not quite as durable as times past due to it only being a -1 to hit, so being overtly bold isn't as safe as it used to be.
Stratagems Here is where you really score on strats, the 2 formation ones will blend into this list perfectly. Precision Drop will let you drop 2 squads and the Tempestor (to score that sweet Grav Commando buff) plus possibly the primaris (not sure if its only for Scions units or not) in full safety. That will wreck any target you’ll see at 500pts. Assuming a battalion formation, field commander and using this strat once you’ll have 6 command points for rerolls/ other strats, an excellent pool at 500pts. Aerial Fire Support can help chip off a few extra wounds on any unit charging near your valk, again at this level even killing 1-3 models with it will be enough to make the cost worthwhile.
So essentially you can get a 2nd turn alpha strike by rolling up the valk, Precision Drop out with 2 squads, the Tempestor Prime and Primaris Psyker, then deep strike in your other two squads of Scions in. You can issue orders to all scion units if spaced correctly (with extra orders on a+2 thanks to The Tactical Auto-Reliquary of Tyberius) and get reroll to wounds on the chosen unit using Old Grudges, with the 2 valk squads getting an additional +1 to hit. That’s a dead unit in almost any game, if you’re lucky you could wipe out 2-3 units in a go. The critical aspect of this list is keeping that Valk alive, otherwise its powerful, fast and flexible, a match for anything at 500pts. Again, feel free to use/ignore anything here, what is effective in your meta is king in the end. Hope this helps, I can offer some suggestions if you want beyond lists over 500pts. -T
Last Edit: Oct 23, 2019 21:13:17 GMT -5 by borkies
Post by Rolling Thunder on Oct 23, 2019 22:05:11 GMT -5
Chaps, this has been monumentally useful:
Didn't know the Valk was much cheaper. Didn't know you could use a Primaris Psyker in a Tempestus Formation and have it battle-forged. Super useful. Misread the entry for the Prime - thought you needed to drop the pistol.
Meta-wise I'm going to be facing Necrons, Tzeentch or some kind of Marine as I'm purely looking at friends. Assuming I have friends after I'm done. Whether I have enough plasma left after the dozen-plus refits the Mercs have gone through is another matter, so meltas may be necessary shoe-ins unless my opponents are cool with my using my modified Xenos weapons as plasma.
And, yes Borkies, you have read my fluff perfectly
Glad this information helped, this is a powerful list if you can get the hammer blow to land before losing too much.
If you're looking to expand this into 1,000pts and keep with the fast moving aspect I'd recommend a outrider detachment of Hellhounds and Scout Sentinels (using the catachan regimental doctrine to increase the flamer hits) supported by some gatling cannon Taurox primes (bought into your battalion formation). The hellhounds and scouting sentinels with heavy flamers can tear apart light infantry screens, giving your Tempestus drop force an opening to smash the key pieces turn 2. The primes would serve as an all around excellent gun truck/transport and you can purchase them freely for the scion/scion command squads already in your list.
You could theme the unit as a flying column/hunter killer/raider formation sent out to shred something
Post by Rolling Thunder on Nov 11, 2019 18:04:12 GMT -5
Well, I got beaten quite badly, though largely due to forgetting the Grav-Chute assault rolls (which might well have given me an extra few melta shots). The Primaris Psyker was useless - quelle surprise as my foe was Tzeentch Daemons. Turns out I only had two plasma-armed mercenaries left in my collection, which I will need to remedy. Got a compliment from a club member on my painting, which was nice.
In Vigilus expansion, there is a formation you can take (similar to 7th edition, but instead of mandating the units you take, it simply provides special rules at the cost of 1 command point). There is one called Tempestus Drop Force. I'll tell you how it works. I run a patrol detachment with my Cadians and use the Tempestus rules (calling them Kasrkins, instead of Scions, because i'm coming up on Old Beard status at this point)
Tempestus Drop Force costs 1 command point
It allows you to use a warlord trait for a Tempestor prime called Drop Force Commander. This enables units that disembark from a Valkyrie within 6" of your warlord to get +1 to hit (if you're unfamiliar with how that works in 8th edition, it means you modify the actual die roll. So 2s becomes 3s, meaning your units hit on 2+)
What this allows, is for you to overcharge your plasma for S8 and 2 damage per shot, without overheating, because as of yet, the rules have not been errated to disallow this. It doesn't state unmodified rolls of 1 overheat, simply rolls of 1. So, any unit with +1 to hit cannot overheat, and any unit suffering a -1 to hit, overheats on a 1 or 2. Similar to how rapid firing plasma used to work in 4th edition.
There is also a strategem for 1 CP that allows you to disembark all units from a Valkyrie that moved over 20 inches without suffering from mishaps. So they don't die on a roll of 1
For the fluffy, game store friendly version of this, you can load up a Valkyrie with 10 scions with 4 plasma guns or 4 hotshot volley guns, and a Tempestor prime, then fly them across the board. Pop the strat. Disembark, and hit everything on 2+. You can give the order to Take AIm and reroll 1s. It's insanely accurate
The ultra competative version of this is to load up 3 command squads all armed with plasma guns. Deep strike the Prime in on turn 2, use the strat, and rapid fire overcharge for 24 plasma gun shots, hitting on 2s, no overheating, generating extra shots on 6s due to Storm Troopers doctrine. I have dealt over 40 wounds to Imperial Knights this way. It's absurdly good, and works well for your fast hitting mercenary force
Another suggestion if you can fit the points, is to take an Officer of the Fleet in your Valk. He can generate mortal wounds with an air strike, and laze a target for the Valkyrie so it gets +1 to hit. Very useful if taking a lascannon on a Valk, or for a 6x Lascannon Vendetta!