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Post by Soap on Feb 16, 2020 15:46:08 GMT -5
Soon, I will once again be commanding my guard into battle for the first time in a long time. Iv written a few list on battle scribe that work out at 500 points exactly. First I want to know which list would be the better option. Secondly, how best to use said list.
Historically, I play a defensive game. Using a gun lines to pound the enemy, because lets face it, up close and personal guardsmen are squishy. That said, with other games such at Bolt Action, I have been know to be an aggressive attacker when the situation allows. Basically, im willing to use a range of tactics. Anyway, here are the lists:
One
HQ
Tank commander - Punnisher, heavy bolter hull and sponsons.
Troops
Infantry squad with x1 plasma gun
Infantry squad with x1 plasma gun x1 missle launcher
Fast
Armoured Sentinel with autocannon
Heavy
Leman Russ Battle Tank with lascannon and heavy bolter sponsons
Two
HQ
Company commander with plasma pistol and power sword
Troops
Infantry squad with plasma gun
Infantry squad with plasma gun
Elite
Special weapons squad with x2 flamers x1 plasma gun
Fast Attack
Armoured Sentinel with autocannon
Armoured Sentinel with autocannon
Heavy support
Leman Russ executioner with heavy bolter and plasma sponsons
Transport
Chimera with Heavy bolter turret and hull, heavy stubber, hunter killer, trackguards
Three
HQ
Knight Cmd Pask with Punnisher, hull heavy bolter, sponson heavy bolters
Troops
Infantry squad
Infantry squad
Fast attack
Armoured Sentinel with autocannon
Transport
Chimera with heavy bolter turret and hull
Chimera with multi laser and heavy bolter hull
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Post by nutty on Feb 17, 2020 1:45:58 GMT -5
All three look like fine list to get back into the game with. Although I would prefer the third myself.
One thing to keep in mind when it comes to 8th is CP; strategems are a big part of the game, and re-rolls are always nice. So I usually try to squeeze in a Batalion to get more. A third infantry squad and an extra commander isn't to big a price to pay, especially if you can get a tank commander and a regular officer.
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Post by Soap on Feb 17, 2020 10:46:42 GMT -5
Strategems... something I need to learn about. A bit of light reading tonight I think lol.
I thought the third list was a bit of a wildcard with having such a high points unit as Pask, in a low point list.
Quick question on Pask. Looking at the rules through battlescribe, it says that depending on wounds, I can make 3 / D3 / 1 attack(s) with that unit. So to clarify. That Punnisher, on full health, can fire its 20 shot Gattling Cannon 3 times for 60 shots in total, and the heavy bolters three times for 9 shots each!? If so thats an absolute beast.
Also, does it have to shoot all weapons at the same target?
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Post by nutty on Feb 17, 2020 13:37:13 GMT -5
No.. the attacks represent the 'A' on the unit's statline; so they are only in close combat.
You get to shoot the main gun twice; provided you stand still or move less than half your movement (grinding advance)
The hull and sponson guns only get to shoot once, but every weapon (including the main gun) get's to shoot at a different target. The only exception is that if you shoot the main cannon twice you have to target the same unit both times.
I'm not convinced Pask is needed in a 500pt battle (BS 2+ is nice though) but I like the idea of a tank commander supported by infantry in chimeras.
Personally I'd try to get a tank commander and a company commander plus 3 infantry squads. After that a chimera and a sentinel, or two chimeras depending on wargear/points. You can certainly make do with a patrol detachment, but I think the main strength of the Imperial Guard lies with being able to fill cheap detachments with fairly effective units.
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Post by Soap on Feb 17, 2020 14:18:39 GMT -5
Thanks for clarifying that rule. With what you said, iv made a revised list:
HQ
Tank commander with Punnisher, hull heavy bolter, sponson heavy bolters
Troops
Infantry squad with flamer and heavy bolter
Infantry squad with plasma gun
Infantry squad with plasma gun
Fast attack
Armoured Sentinel with autocannon
Armoured Sentinel with autocannon
Transport
Chimera with heavy bolter turret and heavy bolter hull
However, I am drawn towards the first list as to allow two Leman Russ tanks over this one.
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Post by nutty on Feb 17, 2020 17:24:43 GMT -5
It's a little more bland but you could go with:
Company commander (you need 2 hq for a batallion)
Tank commander punisher & 3 h.bolters
10 guardsmen w/ plasma
10 guardsmen w/ plasma
10 guardsmen w/ Heavy Bolter
Leman Russ Battle tank w/ 1 h. Bolter
If you take another 'scary' vehicle instead of a 2nd tank:
Company commander
Tank commander punisher & 3 h.bolters
10 guardsmen plasma
10 guardsmen plasma
10 guardsmen
Armored sentinel w/ autocannon
Basilisk w/ h.bolter
-or-
Company commander
Tank commander punisher & 3 h.bolters
10 guardsmen plasma
10 guardsmen flamer
10 guardsmen w/ h.bolter
Armored sentinel w/ autocannon
Hellhound w/ h.bolter
Those will give you a bit more variation in units and still force your opponent to pick one vehicle to deal with first
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Post by Soap on Feb 18, 2020 10:43:42 GMT -5
The list is for an escalation league, with round one being Patrol Detachments only. Probably should have said that to begin with! Are Basilisks effective? Nevery used one, dont even own one. Do like the thought of having a squad of three though  |
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Post by nutty on Feb 18, 2020 16:01:41 GMT -5
Ah yeah that makes quite a bit of difference.
Basilisks are alright on their own; their range and indirect fire means they can hit just about anything on the table (except characters). There are certain strategems that boost their efficiency, but point for point a battlecannon russ would probably be a better investment. They do scare the pants off of most opponents though, so there is that.
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Post by Soap on Feb 18, 2020 16:39:07 GMT -5
Might be worth hunting on ebay for a cheep one then, just for the fear factor of my opponent lol. Speaking of fwar factor, iv just found my Deathstrike Missile Launcher in the loft so had little read up on that. Looks like its been nerfed a bit since the release rules for it. Costs more in points than the Basilisk as well. Might have to roll that out when the points are upped in this league.
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Post by Trickstick on Feb 18, 2020 18:30:25 GMT -5
The only glaring omission that I am seeing is the lack of officers. You don't have to go mad and bring enough orders for everyone, but having an army with none at all seems bad to me. The ability to order move move move or get back in the fight can win games. I would at least take a platoon commander, so that you can get 1 order (or 2 with the bonus order stratagem).
Plus I would go with demolishers over punishers, although that is mainly because they are my favourite tank ever. Who can say no to a massive siege gun? Punishers are pretty good too.
Then again, I favour a mobile tank style with my Tallarn-ish Guard. Cadian are more suited to a mostly static style. So with demolishers and punishers you may have some range problems. If I was to pick a great tank for 500 points it would be a tank commander with the relic Hammer of Sunderance from the Vigilus book. Basically a battlecannon with a fixed 3 damage. Makes it so good at taking out 2w marines and vehicles. Plus the 72" range makes it easy to get shots.
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Post by Uniquelion7945 on Jul 29, 2021 3:54:28 GMT -5
Not to hijack the thread from the OP but I’m kind of in the same boat, looking to build a 500 point patrol detachment to start. I’m focusing on infantry and was thinking for the bases:
Company Commander
10 guardsmen w/ grenade launcher
10 guardsmen w/ heavy bolter
10 guardsmen w/ autocannon
Heavy weapons squad w/ 3x mortars
Leman Russ Battle Tank
This is as far as I got in my planning process. I’m trying to keep my list balanced between competitive and in-line with my fluff (trying to stay away from flame weapons as they seem like they would be frowned upon on an agri-world.) What should I add or take out?
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Post by RedsandRoyals on Jul 29, 2021 7:05:52 GMT -5
Heya Panem, there's no harm in making your own thread for this if you want!
Take what I'm about to say with a grain of salt since I've been out of 40k since mid-8th, but the following has held true since 5th edition more or less, so I imagine it's still relevant.
- You probably want two mobile squads. The Guard has traditionally worked best with the buddy system because they're so fragile, so sending 20 men instead of 10 at an objective will always serve you better.
- Related, I don't know the current iteration of the grenade launcher very well, but traditionally it's been a bit underwhelming. Plasma guns are the best weapon for mobile squads, but I understand if you're reticent to use them (since they're a bit sparse in the kits and in the lore). I've had good results in the past just running everyone with lasguns, and maybe a boltgun on the sergeant at most. The volume of fire using orders is excellent, but they're mostly there to either soften up targets or to finish off things your Leman Russ didn't.
- I don't know enough about the current iteration of heavy bolters and autocannons to offer advice on what to choose for a heavy weapon, but I would suggest putting a sniper rifle in the stationary squad(s) if they're still dirt cheap. It's an extra plink and it only needs to kill one guy to make it's points back well over.
- Mortars are an excellent choice for weapon squads since people usually have no answer to artillery beyond running up and shooting or punching them in the face. That said, their usefulness drops off sharply against two-wound MEQs. I don't suppose you have the points for lascannons?
Finally, I could see flamers being VERY useful on agriworlds so long as they're used by specialists who know how to set up a controlled burn. Slash and burn agriculture is still sustainable in thinly populated areas (like agriworlds) after all. Granted, this could mean that the people who know how to use them (and are trusted to use them) are too valuable to conscript, but it could also mean that they're concentrated into small squads like special weapon squads, and employed judiciously.
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Post by Uniquelion7945 on Jul 29, 2021 8:13:27 GMT -5
Well I figured why make my own thread when A, this is exactly the topic I need help with and B, there is already a lot of good info in this thread applicable to this topic. Opposite of the Imperium, I’m all about efficiency lol
So, I really like the idea you have with the flamers and think they probably make more sense on an agri-world than plasma and far more practicle (from a lore stand point and I’d rather suit the models to fit my lore than go straight competitive.)
I’m going with a light infantry force so I think having squads of just lasguns and flamers is fitting. I added a fourth squad to provide some long range support with a sniper rifle and an autocannon.
So it looks kind of like this..
Company Commander w/ bolt gun and chainsword
10 guardsmen w/ flamer
10 guardsmen w/ flamer
10 guardsmen w/ flamer
10 guardsmen w/ sniper and autocannon
Heavy Weapons Squad w/ 3x mortars
Leman Russ Battle Tank
Still doing some tweaking and any further advice is really appreciated.
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Post by RedsandRoyals on Jul 29, 2021 12:02:24 GMT -5
What points level are you at now? Two stray thoughts...
If sentinels are still aggressively priced, you may want to consider that. Its confirmed in the fluff that there's civilian versions of them and they'd pair well with light infantry.
You may want to consider a special weapons squad instead of a fourth h infantry unit. Flamers work better when used en masse.
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Post by treadiculous on Jul 29, 2021 12:39:41 GMT -5
Heya,
I'm doing the same!!!
500 points is a great scale of game (quick, and easy to set up and move around without redesigning the entire home)
My list is all infantry and utilises a lot of may raging heroe's biker girls. I like infantry, they field a lot of different options and make any anti-tank / anti-character investments the opponent has made worthless. And my opponents like infantry because they die in droves, even if i win.
Current thoughts at roughly 25 Power Level:
HQ - Officer
HQ - Officer
Troops - Infantry Squad
Troops - Infantry Squad
Elite - Command Squad
Elite - Command Squad
Heavy - Mortar Squad
Heavy - Mortar Squad
I still use 8th rules (I prefer out of date rules as you don't have to keep changing everything as new FAQ's come out)
As Reds suggests, plasma guns are great! (I'm weird and have often taken grenade launchers and thery're nowhere near as good, yet I prefer missile launchers over lascannons too... possibly because I face a lot of Orks)
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Post by Uniquelion7945 on Jul 29, 2021 13:36:11 GMT -5
So with the 4 infantry squads kitted out as is it comes out to 500 exact. I kind of like this load out for a standard infantry platoon within a company of my Panem Regiment.
I love the aesthetic look and feel of the Sentinels for my army. My very first iteration of this list had two of them but that list went a little something like…
Company Commander w/ bolt gun and chainsword
10 guardsmen w/ flamer
10 guardsmen w/ flamer
1 scout sentinel w/ flamer
1 scout sentinel w/autocannon
Leman Russ w/ hull heavy bolter, heavy bolter sponsons, and heavy stubber.
I like this load out for more of a scouting element and might add it into my fluff. I also though about dropping the Russ altogether and adding a 3rd infantry squad and maybe a 3rd Sentinel if I could swing it but I like the idea of having the tank on the table for the fear factor Imperial armor brings.
I also have to keep reading on Strategems and regimental doctrines but I’m thinking Tallarn are what I’m leaning towards. Light rifles seem like they would depend on high mobility to stay alive since they are squishy humies.
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Post by RedsandRoyals on Jul 29, 2021 14:40:47 GMT -5
So I like the idea of the Russ as a brick you can just throw in at 500pts and say "Deal with it". It's one of those things Guard can do that others struggle to match. Even if it doesn't fit the light infantry theme, remember cross-attachments are common in the field so it could give you a whole different regiment to come up with! Two alternative ideas though...
- A hellhound variant. Cheaper, still chunky, and and capable of dishing out damage. I swear up down and sideways by regular Hellhounds (facing one in 500pts is terrifying for anything that isn't Primaris), but a Devil Dog might make more sense to keep some AT punch in the list. I don't know how good the Banewolf is these days, but the idea of your people loading it full of hilariously potent weed killer chemicals amuses me, I won't lie. The chassis is something that you could say your people are reasonably familiar with, and if you really want to go all in you can convert it to look like some sort of agricultural vehicle. If you took the Genestealer Cults truck, dropped the dozer blade, threw some big tanks in the back, and mounted a whacking great flamethrower on the turret portion you'd be set to go. The Mechanicus may not like it but they can go fondle a toaster.
- This one is weird but hear me out: A Basilisk. It's cheaper, it's damage output is greater than a Russ, and as with the mortars a lot of armies don't have a good answer to indirect fire. It's also a pretty darn good tank destroyer, and there's all sorts of cool conversions you can do, right down to something like a Stug or StuH.
Either of those would give you points to throw in for more infantry or another sentinel. I'd avoid using flamers on the sentinels if you're taking them in the guard squad though. Let the infantry get up close while the sentinels offer ranged support and act as a mobile fire brigade.
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Post by Uniquelion7945 on Jul 29, 2021 19:54:17 GMT -5
These are some great ideas. After you mentioned flamers I actually went back and looked at the Codex for Hellhounds and thought the same thing. I like the Russ but the Basilisk option intrigues me as well.
In the end, I think I’ll stick to the 4 infantry squads, Heavy weapons squad with mortars and the bare bones russ. Just for beginners sake and to kind of feel it out. I’ve got fluff coming for supporting elements to my light infantry boys, just gotta get to writing.
As for the converted hellhounds, I love this idea. Part of my original fluff was that being cutoff from the rest of the Imperium out in the Jericho Reach Sector forced the Panemenites to build their own patterns of weapons in some cases. This would be a great way to flesh that out. Im also brainstorming an idea for a converted Leman Russ but first I have to open that first box of Chadians and get to painting…
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Post by Uniquelion7945 on Jul 30, 2021 16:40:53 GMT -5
- A hellhound variant. Cheaper, still chunky, and and capable of dishing out damage. I swear up down and sideways by regular Hellhounds (facing one in 500pts is terrifying for anything that isn't Primaris), but a Devil Dog might make more sense to keep some AT punch in the list. I don't know how good the Banewolf is these days, but the idea of your people loading it full of hilariously potent weed killer chemicals amuses me, I won't lie. The chassis is something that you could say your people are reasonably familiar with, and if you really want to go all in you can convert it to look like some sort of agricultural vehicle. If you took the Genestealer Cults truck, dropped the dozer blade, threw some big tanks in the back, and mounted a whacking great flamethrower on the turret portion you'd be set to go. The Mechanicus may not like it but they can go fondle a toaster. I couldn’t help but keep mulling over about this and the idea of “Fumigation Squadrons” roaming the country side spraying for Tyranids with supporting Tempest Scions really struck a chord with me. Might have to do something with that later on… |
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