Troop choices and Inf Platoons

[fatuous]

I've been toying around with the idea of using some last chancers in a game for a change, and have come up against a bit of a problem. Now, I haven't read the books, just taking what I know from the codex, but as a penal legion, I thought it'd be cool to take the max amount of last chancers, and then take conscript platoons to make up the numbers, and add some heavy weapons.

I've hit this snag.

If you take Schaffer, Cage and 20 conscripts this will take up a HQ and 2 troop choices. But, as far as I can see, you can't add fire support sqauds (for example) to Schaffer as a HQ choice, these can only be attached to/make up your command platoon. Similarly with the conscript squads. You can only take 1 for every standard inf platoon you take.

Is there any cunning way around this??

I guess you could take a HW platoon instead, and LCs with HWs would hit more often anyway.

In addition, Schaffer doesn't seem to have the Command special rules either. All last chancers will auto pass morale checks while he is alive, great, but what about any one else in the army if you are using him as your commander? Are they stuck with their bog standard LD. I did notice that you can take a vox caster with LCs, but this is of no use if Schaffer doesn't have the command rule (Ok, if he dies, AND you have a HSO with a vox, then u can use his Ld I guess).

Ok, a few questions there.

NB. Note I'm going on the latest IG Codex rules for making your own Last Chancers, NOT using the older rules for the rather expensive boxed set.

Thanks.

[Deleted]

You can have 2 command squads, one as Schaffer,the other as a J.O. or something like that so you cn get the heavy weapons and things.I know it doesn't go very well wit hthe theme of your army but you could say the J.O. and his force was called in to help support the last chancers.

cage and 20 conscripts is still only 1 troops choice i beleive since the minimum you can feild is 20.

[fatuous]

Ahhhhh, that is a good idea, I hadn't really thought about doing that. I knew you could have 2 HQ choices, but had my head stuck on HSOs . That would be much better than a HW platoon, and could solve the comand/Ld of none LCs issues.

[Deleted]

i re-read the rules on the last chancers and noticed that indeed any troops over 16 count as 2 troops choices.my appologies to you sir.

[fatuous]

Hey no probs . I just wished they counted as platoons so u could take 2 mobs of conscripts.

Ahh well.........

I'm gonna give em a go any way cos I want to field a squad of 5 mortars, recon that could be lethal lol.

[knight (M.I.A)]

The Last Chancers doesn't count as the infantry platoons required to field conscript platoons. So unless you don't take normal platoons as well you can't get conscripts.
And remember that there are players who don't allow special characters in games (like me). So it could be possible that your nice and expensive army is useless.

[Deleted]

Knight, welcome to 4th Edition.
Special Characters are no longer special. You no longer need your opponent's consent to use them. Newer Codexes (Such as the 4th Edition Dark Angels Codex) don't even bother seperating 'special' characters from the standard HQ options.

[9th Company]

knight said:

The Last Chancers doesn't count as the infantry platoons required to field conscript platoons. So unless you don't take normal platoons as well you can't get conscripts.
And remember that there are players who don't allow special characters in games (like me). So it could be possible that your nice and expensive army is useless.

Just out of curiosity, why would you refuse to allow an opponent to use their special characters? I`ve never really understood why people do that. Wouldn`t it screw up your opponents army?

[knight (M.I.A)]

Thanks Whitman, but I already know the 4th Edition I only played about 2 months after the 3rd edition rules.

And I don't allow them as I simply don't like them. If you want to play vs me you have to play without them (but that doesn't mean that you can't use the mini, I use a converted Creed and Schaeffer mini as my SO and as a JO, too). I think that they screw up the balance with their special rules even if they cost enough points and are generally weaker then their WHFB counterparts. But what is wrong at using your own mind and thinking about some nice and more personal characters? And no it should screw up their armies. There are also game weekends/campaigns that doesn't allow the use of special characters and therefore they should be prepared for something like that.
And if my conditions shouldn't suit some there are a lot more players walking around they and I can battle with the conditions they and I want...

[fatuous]

Ahhh, you're one of the peeps Jarvis was lamenting about in one of the latest WD mags .

All personnal preference tho really.

Regardless, I'm not custom building an army, just playing around with what I have already.

So no cunning tips/work arounds then?

[knight (M.I.A)]

Must have missed that one.
But you should always prepare for such ppl as there are many of us out there. So your nice army could be useless against many players and not allowed at many tournaments

[Deleted]

I see nothing wrong with using your mind to think up fluff when making your army and i certainly see nothing wrong with using say Gaunt if you want to play a Tanith army.It is a themed army just like people who think up nice backgrounds about their armies.

maybe a person got into playing I.G. becouse of those novels.Would you really not play with some one that wanted to play Gaunt in his Tanith army ?

[knight (M.I.A)]

Playing themed armies is something totally different. So Gaunt in pure Tanith First and Only together with Corbec, Milo, Larkin, Bragg, Rawne, and all the other special characters and using the Tanith AoC from Chapter Approved is something totally different.
But using a Creed in some random Cadian regiment that isn't build exactly like the Cadian 8th (colour scheme,etc.) or using Schaeffer in an army that is just for effectivity. If you want to use Schaeffer against me you have to field a complete penal legion (like shown in the first IG collectors guide).

So you could say I'm fine with special chars in themed armies that represent the fluff of these special chars. But using them for effectivity is totally wrong.

[9th Company]

Yeah, fair play I`m totally with you in the sense that special characters should only be used in a themed army. It just isn`t right having Creed lead anything other than the 8th etc. It takes away the specialness of the character in my opinion.

[knight (M.I.A)]

Same for Schaeffer. He'll always lead huge force of "scum" with Kage and a small force of his personal elites (those who already survived some battles). The rest of his force will be generic scum lead by some "officers" (others of his elite). There won't be any tanks or stuff like that. Or has anybody ever seen criminals driving tanks or other vehicles?!

[Deleted]

Actually, one of the original Last Chancers (back when they got individual entries) was in prison for stealing an Eldar ambasador's Waveserpent. Have we not heard of "grand theft auto"?

As for your particular preferances... why should yours matter any more than mine? I see no reason why your opponents must always defer to your particular desires. In fact, it strikes me as rather arrogant that you'd assume automatically that your opponent would acced to such a demand. Should the Eldar Phoeinx Lords, masters of their path, not aid the Eldar wherever they might battle? Is there truely only ONE XV-22 Battlesuit in the entire Tau Empire?

"Play my way or I'm leaving" went out of style when you turned 10. By acceding to a game of Warhammer, you've agreed to play by the rules, not just the ones you like.

[knight (M.I.A)]

Actually, one of the original Last Chancers (back when they got individual entries) was in prison for stealing an Eldar ambasador's Waveserpent. Have we not heard of "grand theft auto"?

That was Screw, wasn't he?

As for your particular preferances... why should yours matter any more than mine? I see no reason why your opponents must always defer to your particular desires. In fact, it strikes me as rather arrogant that you'd assume automatically that your opponent would acced to such a demand. Should the Eldar Phoeinx Lords, masters of their path, not aid the Eldar wherever they might battle? Is there truely only ONE XV-22 Battlesuit in the entire Tau Empire?

"Play my way or I'm leaving" went out of style when you turned 10. By acceding to a game of Warhammer, you've agreed to play by the rules, not just the ones you like.

I think that's called "HOUSE RULES" where players agree on leaving some rules they don't like out and adding others theey think that weren't implented in the rules by GW.
And no my desires don't matter more then yours. But normally if you talk to you opponents you should be able to agree on a solution that is suitable for both parties and most players I know would beat the crap out of you because you use Schaeffer just for power gaming and not like his backgroundstory would suggest.
So if you want to field a special characters vs me, use them in a themed army (it's great to play vs a Tanith First and Only army with Gaunt, Corbec, Rawne and all the others) or in a fun game (like the 1000pts White Dwarf + army vs everyones fantasy armies in the shop). But not just for power gaming. Like Last Chancers as a cheap excuse to field troops with higher BS and access to better weaponary.

Edit: And normally a friendly player asks if you have no problems if he/she fields a special character. Only the ones who can't play and win without them wouldn't do that

[9th Company]

I think thats a bit harsh. I haven`t read any of the last chancer books but I`d say it would be totally feasible that Tanks could be included in a army that has Last Chancers. The tanks could be attatched to the force to assisst in the mission or, even better (and funnier) you could invent some fluff where a few Last Chancers stole a tank or two to help in the mission. don`t forget, I`m sure tank crews will also be demoted to Last Chancer status I know last chancers can have anything from the armoury because they would steal them from officers, commissars etc, so why not tanks as well.

[knight (M.I.A)]

In none of the fluff I know about the Last Chancers they had any tanks. If they get tanks they could easily disobey orders from Schaeffer and kill him.
The Last Chancers are normally criminals that would be normally punished with the death penalty. They're the worst scum the Imperial Guard has to offer and you want to give them tanks?! Schaeffer just chooses criminals for his mission as there is nearly no chance of returning alive.
And if you have read the descrition above his methods above his rules/stats you should know, that he takes hundreds of convicts and send them into suicidal battles and he is doing that until he has found the best of them and after he has found these few specialts he sends them into the mission they were chosen for. And normally these missions are missions where a complete army wouldn't be useful (infiltrating and sabotage)

[Deleted]

I've got the old last chancers, I'm gonna try a sucidal squad team one day. Using all their special rules.

www.geocities.com/Area51/Aurora/2118/40k17a.html

oh and about the vechials, for "screw"
" Special Rules: If the Last Chancers have a Chimera then Grease Monkey will drive it. He may re-roll any failed Dangerous Terrain tests. If the vehicle is destroyed roll to see if he survives as if he were a passenger. In special scenarios of your own devising he can repair or hot-wire and drive any vehicle on a roll of 2+."

[knight (M.I.A)]

These are the old Last Chancers with Schaeffer always next to them.
But who would be stupid enough if he's on foot to allow murderes, thieves and other scum to drive a tank?! And always remember in their heart they all want to see you dead...

[Deleted]

wow knight, the people you play with would " beat the crap out of a person for wanting to use Schaefer" .For power gaiming or not i really don't think that i want to play with any of the people you play against since i care more about my well being than a stupid game.

If this game comes to blows then it really is taken too seriously and no longer becomes fun but a huge testosterone fest where people are trying to one up others and totally forget the reason we play it, to have fun.Well i guess you are having fun if you want to throw fists over something so trivial as wanting to play lets try Abadon this time in a chaos undivided army.

[knight (M.I.A)]

The beating part wasn't meant literally. They simply wouldn't play vs armies that use special characters for power gaming and tell it more or less friendly (normally very unfriendly) to the person who tried to field a special char for power gaming. Put your char in a themed army and everything is fine. Exception is only Captain Lysander as he ruins all balance that you can find in this game...

And what I mean with power gaming is abusing Schaeffer and his Last Chancers just as an cheap excuse to field 20 plasmaguns with good BS... (replace 20 plasmaguns with everything you need/want).
And I think I'll stop that pointless discussion here as there is no sense in explaining why some people allow special characters and why others don't. And it's starting to getting more likely that we will start throwing fists at each other because of personal preferences that people I know in real life will start throwing fists at others who want to field special characters for powergaming

[9th Company]

I`d say it would be alright for last chancers to have a tank or two. I don`t think all of them would want to kill the Colonel afterall, they are there to redeem themselves in the eyes of the Emperor. Plus, I just think its very Last Chancers character to steal a tank for their mission. Orks can have looted vehicles, why can`t they. Imagine the confusion when a Leman Russ tank crew return to their tank only to find it missing!!!

And to the original poster, just go for it. As long as your army follows the charter organisation chart there is no reason why you won`t be allowed to play. The Chancers are troop choices now so if anyone complains its their own problem. I know I wouldn`t alter my army simply because someone thought it was unfair.

[knight (M.I.A)]

Well I can't shut up. ;D
If it's well made I have no problems with the Last Chancers. But there are people out there who read the entry and try to make it as "unfair" as possible. For example just to add 20 other snipers. That's in my eyes really "unfair" and not like the Last Chancers should be used. But imho there is only one really unfair special character. And that is Captain Lysander of the Imperial Fists.

PS: Watch out if you're using special characters and want to play on tournaments as special chars aren't allowed there very often.