We Are Spared!!

[knight (M.I.A)]

I think only the Leopard 2A6 and T-90 models can fire somewhat accurate on the move. Not even the Challangers and M1s can.

[ssgtdude (M.I.A)]

First off I consider RT a good friend. So anything said is only by pure disagreement with his point of view. He is no way incorrect with his thought or point of view.

Jul 9, 2008 10:05:55 GMT -5 Rolling Thunder said:

Indeed, however the point remains that if the insuregents are utilising civilians as cover, then under no circumstances should ANY form of long-ranged HE fire be used. Send in the infantry to clean them out.

Sure, go ahead. By the time they get there you have an empty ally. Drop a piece of ordinance on them and you have minimum casualties. Esp, when the art is able to pin point it's accuracy.

The insurgents use this type of cover knowing that they are able to lob a shell over what they are behind with little to no chance that a shall would be able to be lobbed back at them. At least until now. The capability is there and should be used to protect the lives of civilians as well as the targets of the insurgents.

In war there is a listing called Acceptable civilian losses. Sorry, it happens. Wish it didn't, but it does. I became a medic because I believe in saving lives not taking them. Just a fact of war that some civilians will die.

Object of war is to kill, maime, wound as many of them while keeping yours alive.

And grenadier- The Abrams still cannot move and accurately fire under battlefield conditions.

Suggest you read up on a little battle called Medina Ridge.

[Rolling Thunder]

And this is where you and I will disagree (from a purely intellectual standpoint- as Staff says before, this is in no way, shape or form a personal argument). For, from a tactical viewpoint the use of artillery against civillian areas may seem a reasonable means of neutralising a threat. But from a strategic standpoint, it's highly counterproductive, given that you have achieved virtually nothing for a significant boost to the enemy. All they have lost will be at best some easily-replaced soviet-era weaponery, a couple of Toyota pickups and at most a platoon-sized force. In return, they have the oppurtunity of broadcasting to the world 'American Brutality', with pictures of artillery rounds exploding around a hospital/mosque/orphanage. Even without the civilian casualties, the terror caused to these people will naturally exacerbate their hostility to your prescence in their country. And as you said, there most likely will be civillian casualties. Do it too often, and you're looking at Vietnam all over again- 60-70% of the population deeply hostile to foriegn prescence, and bogged down in an unwinable bloodbath.

And on Medina ridge, I find no evidence online to suggest that the M1A1's did not stop before engaging the enemy armour- indeed, I have yet to find any evidence (anecdotal or otherwise) that the M1 series or any other modern tank is capable of firing with any degree of accuracy on the move.

[Woz]

Modern MBT's can fire on the move with a high degree of accuracy.

BUT

The faster the tank moves and the less uneven the ground the tank travels on becomes the less accuracy the tank has.

So if a MBT is traveling slowly along an smooth road it can fire with a high degree of accuracy but the same tank at high speed traveling across fields would have less chance of hitting it's target.

Even modern tank commanders prefer to stop and shoot to ensure a first round kill.

[Rolling Thunder]

Jul 9, 2008 15:28:58 GMT -5 Woz said:

Modern MBT's can fire on the move with a high degree of accuracy.

BUT

The faster the tank moves and the less uneven the ground the tank travels on becomes the less accuracy the tank has.

So if a MBT is traveling slowly along an smooth road it can fire with a high degree of accuracy but the same tank at high speed traveling across fields would have less chance of hitting it's target.

Even modern tank commanders prefer to stop and shoot to ensure a first round kill.

My point exactly. I washaving a word with a fellow who'd been a Challenger commander during Desert Storm, and according to him, while MBT's can move and fire and will hit the target 60/70% of the time, they are highly unlikely to cause any damage to an armoured vehicle.

[Mabus]

WOZ HAS OFFICIALLY NO RIGHT TO TELL ME NOT TO GO OFF TOPIC AGAIN!

I just wanted to make that clear to all.

Thankyou,

[Woz]

Jul 12, 2008 14:20:45 GMT -5 Mabus said:

WOZ HAS OFFICIALLY NO RIGHT TO TELL ME NOT TO GO OFF TOPIC AGAIN!

I just wanted to make that clear to all.

Thankyou,

Why ??

We're just discussing if a Bassie would be able to move and fire using real world AFV's.

It's not like we've started talking about the price of fish or anything.

[Deleted]

i think that the price of fresh ocean fish in kentucky is way too high.

[Mabus]

Now that you mention it Woz.... the price of fish has sky-rocketed in recent years.....

I think you may be reading into the rules a bit too deeply here guys. The game isn't meant to represent our real-world equivelents, it is meant to be enjoyed with a pinch of salt. There are loads of rules which make no sense, but no-doubt enhance the gaming experiance.

No matter how the rules for the Basilisk moving and shooting change, people wil still find ways of critisising and moaning about them.

[Deleted]

bah i still insist that it should be switched out for a griffon. were in a small battle that takes place in a much larger one. we shouldnt have long range artillery this close to the front lines.

[ssgtdude (M.I.A)]

Spacepuppy or at least reflect a longer range of fire.

[Count Elakor]

back to topic.
the bassie sould be able to fire on the move example: drives at 20mph, stops(this takes max 5sec) fires, starts to move again. simple
with suspension that is not locked under firing the tank will start to jump and turn the driver inside to jam.
crew: gunners are behin at the platform firing the gun, if all is as it should, the barel redards sligtly to compensate for recoyl and the tank shakes sligtly. if suspension is active the guners would be trown of the platform.
comander: in his hach at the front of tank giving orders. results just as gunners.
driver: inside cramped, metalic area, locked suspension tha tank shakes it is sligtly unplesant for driver. suspension active tank jumpes all over the place, shaking/mashing the driver to jam.
if firing on the move the tank will auto stop because the recoyl temperarily kills the engine (safety there not to rip apart the tank by voilent shaking)

[trooperlucky573]

Okay... Some notes on armoured vehicles:
1.: Most modern tanks have crews of three or four, depending on whether or not they use an autoloader or a human loader. The other positions are Crew Commander, Gunner and Driver. The Crew Commander (and sometimes the Loader) operate the comms suite, while the driver is in charge of maintenance on the engine/hull/drive system, and the gunner maintains the turret and weapon systems. Neither the Driver or Gunner is trained past basic driver/gunner maintenance; serious problems are ignored or bandaged until the vehicle can be taken to a technician (or until it breaks down).
2.: Almost all modern tanks are equipped with a 'stab' system for the main gun and the coaxial machinegun located right next to it. This system allows for accuracy while on the move. The Leopard 1 and Leopard 2 tanks have (arguably) the best stabilization systems, allowing for first round hits while traveling upwards of 40kph cross country. The M1 Abrams and Challenger tanks are stabilized as well, but use different targeting systems that cause loss of accuracy while moving, despite the stab systems. Recent advances in ammunition and targeting technology has seen a movement towards smoothbore 120mm guns in lieu of the older 105mm rifled guns.
3.: While the vehicle suspension does absorb some of the recoil from the gun, the majority is absorbed by the recoil system on the gun itself, and by using a muzzle brake in the case of lighter tanks carrying heavier guns than they should (Stingray Light Tank). Firing on the move does not significantly effect operations, although there is a moment of blindness through the targeting system after firing, especially at night as the optics recover from the muzzle flash and smoke clears. Using the 'Daylight Sights' is so equipped can ease this problem, since they're just an episcope with a graticule pattern.

The three core fundamentals of armoured vehicles are: Firepower, Mobility and Protection. Generally you can have two of them at a high level while one suffers. A good tank sits in the middle of each somewhere, unless it's purpose built for a job like recce (higher mobility, lower protection, average firepower) or engineer work (very high protection, low or very specific firepower, average to low mobility).

The purpose of Armour (according to the Canadian Forces) is to: "Take Ground Through the Aggressive Use of Firepower and Battlefield Mobility."

Anyways, I'm a treadhead in game (rolling with Armoured Company and/or Mech Infantry), and a zipperhead (armoured crewman) IRL. Just thought I'd lend a bit of perspective on tanks/light armoured vehicles IRL.

[Sen.Kerry]

I would rather stress the question 'Why is there long range artillery on the front lines?' It could be a transport column, But if I were a commander, I would tell the bassilisks to make a tactical retreat, rather than them get shot to all holy hell because the angry men with chainsaws saw the massive muzzle blast behind that rock...

[Rolling Thunder]

An interesting note is that tanks cannot move very rapidly over rough terrain due to the potential for harming their crews. Another fact is that, despite all the things lucky has said, the tactical instructions for every armour commander is to stop before firing.

[trooperlucky573]

? The only time you stop before firing is when conducting defensive operations using run up positions, or when lending intimate support to the infantry. Or if you have to 'go firm' and support infantry while they clear an ambush. Armoured operations on the offensive seldom stop moving unless they have to take up a tricky fire position, as a tank that has stopped is a tank that can easily be harmed by hostile fire. As for harming the crews, it really depends on terrain, and type of vehicle. Tracked vehicles can maintain a higher rate of speed across country because of the suspension system and the number of road wheels they have. LAV type vehicles tend to travel more slowly.

[Rolling Thunder]

Uh, lucky, I don't know where you're getting your info from, but whoever it is.... well, they're lying, or misinformed. All I know is a certain friend of mine, commander of a Warrior IFV, informs me that they are under instruction to stop before firing the main gun on their vehicle. And that is not exactly a very heavy gun.
Thye are also under instructions not to move above a certain speed for fear of harming their infantry inside AND the crews themselves.

[trooperlucky573]

Wow. That's lame. My info is from the CF, more specifically my own experiences and those of my buddies in the LdSH(RC). Cross country speed restrictions are normal, as is being careful when in intimate support of infantry, but coming to a full stop before firing every time? That's just pointless. Mind you, the Warrior is an IFV, so it would be operating with infantry scatted around everywhere, which would make firing dangerous, since the 30mm on it can hurt or kill just by passing over/near an infantryman.

Tanks are a different kettle of fish, as they are seldom in as close proximity to dismounted infantry, and any infantry around them are warned that they are not to advance past the centre of the vehicle, since if the main gun fires, that's the furthest forward area that's safe to be in. IFV's and APC's have to adjust for the infantry they carry, infantry has to adjust to being around tanks.