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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2009 22:50:29 GMT -5
Posted by ssgtdude on Aug 3, 2009, 4:23pm
Melta in hands of a vet are good, but you only if used enmasse. You get the advantage of the ap1 and not the additional die and tend to need a 6 to just glance it.
The Melta still gets the additional dice roll because its part of the weapons strength not a bonus. So ideally against a monolith, you want to have a melta bomb or two.
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Post by ssgtdude (M.I.A) on Aug 19, 2009 13:52:22 GMT -5
I'm going to have to look at the FAQ on this. If you are right there are going to be some Cron players out there with lumps on the side of their heads.
The only weapon's that I knew that still had the 2d6 were the Ordinance weapons.
Melta bombs it is part of the strength of the weapon so that too would give you the two dice, but the gun is addition to the strength at shorter range which the living metal supposedly has rules against. I will look at the FAQ tomorrow when I am at the office.
Edit: Checked the FAQ and it doesn't even mention the living metal. So, tonight I will look in the codex at the store once I get off work. Neither of us want mis-information going out.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 20, 2009 14:21:35 GMT -5
No, But I think the Melta bomb should be the best bet. its a bit crazy...assaulting a Monolith, but thats why space marines and Marbo do for a living.
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Post by blackarmchair on Aug 20, 2009 19:35:47 GMT -5
Posted by ssgtdude on Aug 3, 2009, 4:23pm
Melta in hands of a vet are good, but you only if used enmasse. You get the advantage of the ap1 and not the additional die and tend to need a 6 to just glance it.The Melta still gets the additional dice roll because its part of the weapons strength not a bonus. So ideally against a monolith, you want to have a melta bomb or two. From Warhammer 40k Core Rulebook page 32: "Melta weapons are lethal, short-range 'heat rays'. They roll and extra D6 when rolling to penetrate a vehicle's Armor Value at half range or less." That's an EXTRA D6. Plus Codex: Necrons explicitly states on page 21 that meltas don't get the extra die. Sorry
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Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2009 21:30:13 GMT -5
But that sounds like the Melta assault weapon, not a melta bomb, considering the device is attached to the side of monolith not fired directly.
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Post by ElegaicRequiem on Aug 21, 2009 22:15:02 GMT -5
Weapons don't get the extra dice vs the monolith. The grenades don't get extra dice the way chainfists, meltaguns, etc. do. They are X + Y = S, S being the strength and X is either 4, 6, or 8 and Y is either d6 or 2d6. Considering how retarded hard it is to get enough meltabombs into base contact, Necron players shouldn't object too much. Besides, the best tactics are not that relevant when the best strategy is to go for phase-out.
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Post by blackarmchair on Aug 21, 2009 23:08:07 GMT -5
Meltabombs I'm not sure about, Codex Necron does say that "melta weapons" don't work against the Monolith.
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Post by ElegaicRequiem on Aug 22, 2009 3:02:28 GMT -5
*Dissolves into a steaming puddle of frothing spittle.* No, not really. I'm not that upset. I've just wanted an excuse to type that... But 'melta weapons' are only shooting weapons that get a SR on pg. 32. Meltabombs are entirely different. There are no bonus dice being rolled, only the base for the grenade-type attack. Perhaps, when the Necron codex is FINALLY redone, meltabombs will be added to the list of things that don't annoy the monolith. But considering how many rules the 'lith breaks as it is, I think it's a decent means of balancing its power.
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Post by ssgtdude (M.I.A) on Aug 24, 2009 6:50:25 GMT -5
However. Finale rule of the living metal states that as a rule all weapons will get unaugmented strength plus a single d6 for armor pen.
That means melta bombs only get the str+d6 as well.
I had to look this one up as well this weekend. Monsterous creatures, Chainfist, and Melta weapons were specifically mentioned.
The only weapon that the codex specifically states gets the 2d6 is ordinance and it is followed by Pick the highest meaning that we still only have the weapon str plus a single d6.
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Post by ElegaicRequiem on Aug 25, 2009 22:52:23 GMT -5
Grenades don't work like weapons and cc attacks against armor. Do you have some backup for your claim, as it's not RAW? Considering the outdated nature of the Necron codex, and the exception for ordnance, it may not be RAI either...
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Post by ssgtdude (M.I.A) on Aug 26, 2009 7:05:27 GMT -5
The codex is still the rules. Regardless of it being an older version than the rules themselves. GW has ALWAYS stood behind the raw of a codex supercedes the rules in the rule book.
The codex is very specific in the way living metal works.
Once again it is a case of the Lith breaking the rules.
It also goes to show that our best weapon close up is still the melta gun or the multi-melta due the nature of the way AP1 weapons increase the result roll by one.
While we only get a glance it can still be wrecked on the roll of a 6.
Hopefully in the next codex we will see a re-write of the living metal.
Edit: I would like to see Living metal be able to regenerate on a 4+ a weapon or damage catagory (i.e. on a 4+ can self repair the immobilization, repair 1 weapon destroyed result single roll per turn. One or the other not both like a tech priest)
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Post by ElegaicRequiem on Aug 26, 2009 12:06:59 GMT -5
That regeneration idea is cool.
However, my post wasn't attacking the 'sovereignty' of the codex. I dispute the notion that melta bombs only get 8+d6, as they aren't 'melta weapons' as I understand it.
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Post by ssgtdude (M.I.A) on Aug 26, 2009 12:29:45 GMT -5
The fact that they are "melta" bombs inherently make them melta weapons.
They just happen to be in a bomb format. Look in the Eldar rules and FAQ on the Avatar. In that listing it states what counts as melta and what doesn't. The Inferno pistol is also listed in that.
The notion is founded I give you that, but the fact that the last line of the living metal specifically states that you only get the unaugmented str of the weapon and s single d6 over rules your opposition.
Until this is FAQ'd out or their codex is re-written we have to suck it up.
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Post by ElegaicRequiem on Aug 26, 2009 18:36:21 GMT -5
The current Eldar FAQ doesn't have a 'list,' and people shouldn't have to reference other armies' stuff. I blame GW for that, not you. However, due to the half-assed descriptions and stuff in the rules, meltabombs are not melta weapons because they're grenades. Grenades have no weapon type. If you can produce something that even partially supports that meltabombs do not get their full strength against a 'lith, I'll agree with you. I'll start using my monolith more often then...
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Post by ssgtdude (M.I.A) on Aug 26, 2009 18:50:48 GMT -5
Go to page 21 I think it is in the Cron codex and read living metal.
The last sentence sumises the whole thing. All weapons use unaugmented strength and a single d6
How does the package change that the weapon isn't a melta weapon?
It is a shaped melta weapon that directs its blast into a specific area. It is not a hand held melta weapon, but it is still a melta weapon. Show me any where in the rules or the codex that dispute that it is not a melta weapon and only shares the name by pure coincidence.
It would not have been named "melta" nor share the full potential in damage if it were anything else. A Krak Grenade is still a Krak weapon as it shares the same profile as both the "Krak" Missle and the Krak Grenade for a GL.
read the description of a melta bomb sometime and show me where it says it is not a melta weapon.
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Post by ElegaicRequiem on Aug 26, 2009 18:55:52 GMT -5
So you define the 8 + 2d6 as not being the un-augmented strength of a meltabomb, but rather the 8?
And I can't show you where it says it is not a melta weapon, just as much as you can't show me where it says it is. Grenades are not shooting weapons, they're a type of cc weapon. Cc weapons don't get the same modifiers as shooting weapons.
Regardless, the argument hinges on the definition of what the basic strength of a meltabomb is.
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Post by ssgtdude (M.I.A) on Aug 26, 2009 18:59:46 GMT -5
the unaugmented str is 8 the extra dice are augmentations to that str. I didn't define it GW did.
From the dictionary:
aug·ment (ôg-měnt') v. aug·ment·ed, aug·ment·ing, aug·ments
v. tr.
To make (something already developed or well under way) greater, as in size, extent, or quantity: Continuing rains augmented the floodwaters. Linguistics To add an augment to. v. intr. To become augmented. See Synonyms at increase. n. (ôg'měnt') Linguistics The prefixation of a vowel accompanying a past tense, especially of Greek and Sanskrit verbs.
[Middle English augmenten, from Old French augmenter, from Late Latin augmentāre, from Latin augmentum, an increase, from augēre, to increase; see aug- in Indo-European roots.] aug·ment'a·ble adj., aug·ment'er n.
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Post by ElegaicRequiem on Aug 26, 2009 19:11:29 GMT -5
I always thought it odd that words of Latin origin got lumped into the "Indo-European" group.
So then... do you add the strength of the wielder to grenade attacks? Technically, the whole 8 +2d6 is for AP, not the strength of the weapon... now I'm confused...
...
I guess I'll just use the 'lith in a game, and see what happens...
What I would like to see changed, is the portal acting like the board edge, so that warriors and such could move from it six inches... 20 warriors can't fit w/in 2" of that door for disembarkation...
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Post by ssgtdude (M.I.A) on Aug 26, 2009 19:27:19 GMT -5
As much as I would like it to be different it isn't my friend.
the melta bomb's unaugmented str is 8 no other additions like the str of who threw it added in.
It is not like a normal ccw or power weapon where the str is that of the wielder.
Just one more way the lith breaks rules in the game.
I would love to have Straken punch it using his rules and see how long it lasts on the table, but with the living metal rule I use his base str and a d6 no pluses for furious charge just his base str and the d6. He can't even glance the danged thing.
And don't get me started on other ways it breaks the rules like teleporting broken units to get the second wbb roll, or how you can never destroy the lith through multiple glances with weapon destroyed and immobilizations because the one weapon can NEVER be destroyed.
Yes my friend the this floating tank cheese is something the Cron players have and they were the first to whine that they couldn't destroy tanks on a glance anymore regardless of the AV of the tank.
again just wish it wasn't true.
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Post by ElegaicRequiem on Aug 26, 2009 21:35:35 GMT -5
... hadn't considered that units wouldn't get the +1 from furious charge. Not that I would have used that...
Very well... that last sentence is the trump card -- it's the same as everything else in the rule, plus more.
Necrons do need help with the WBB, though. It's just not that fancy with all the stuff that's on the table now. It can't be glanced to death, but it can be glanced into uselessness.
New tactic against the 'lith: valks/vendettas in sqaudrons. Nine t-l lascannons is sure to do something...
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Post by ssgtdude (M.I.A) on Aug 31, 2009 7:17:36 GMT -5
Actually it can be glanced to death. Look at the profile again. I just noticed this this weekend.
The Power matrix is not listed as a weapon. While the power matrix can not be destroyed by weapon destroyed results you can destroy the Gauss Flux 6 times and immobilize it in order to destroy it.
So it is 7 Immobilized/weapon destroyed results to destroy it on glance/Pen chart.
Still not pratical in my mind and the amount of damage it can do to your army versus just going for the phase out makes the choice easy.
This weekend faced two in a 1600 point three way game Forced the phase out in three turns and then only had to worry about the chaos marines on the table.
I lost one full squad and a Banewolf. Huron Black heart took a str9 ap 1 hit from soulstorm as his head exploded.
During the game I immobilized one of the lith in first turn, Straken Beat a defiler over the head until it stopped moving with its own close combat weapon (took it out in the first round of combat), then took out a squad of crons by himself. The Scripts with the help of the psyker battle squad forced a rout on the Cron lord and his squad after he left combat he used veil of darkness to teleport across the table where he managed to take the battle cannon off the "Clueless" where he and the squad then met death to the heavy flamer mounted on the hull of the basilisk and the surviving Banewolf that rolled up to him sealed the deal.
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Post by ElegaicRequiem on Aug 31, 2009 11:14:08 GMT -5
So something that can be used as a weapon in the shooting phase doesn't count as a weapon?
If it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck...
IT'S A DAEMON! KILL IT WITH FIRE!!
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Post by Deleted on Aug 31, 2009 22:22:53 GMT -5
Sorry, Elegaic. I rolled a 6. Don't forget, all Duck-Daemons get Inspirational Hero. It is after all the Aflack Duck-Daemon.
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Post by ssgtdude (M.I.A) on Sept 1, 2009 7:11:22 GMT -5
Guess that is better than the Howard the Duck.
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Post by ElegaicRequiem on Sept 1, 2009 13:35:31 GMT -5
*Commandeers squad after squad of hellhounds.*
I knew this day would come...
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